Can anyone recomend great stud dog with excellent everything?

[lvoss]

I disagree about not being able to tell too much about individuals based on the line behind them. If a dog comes from a true line, one where the breeder has worked over many generations to develop their line to the point where they have consistent type then you can come to expect certain things about individuals of that line. Just as Pat said, she looks to certain lines because she has come to expect certain traits from them. If you talk to breeders who have been around for a few decades they will tell you that you used to be able to see a dog from across the ring and know the breeder without ever seeing catalog because of the distinct look of the line. I see more and more that there are not many true lines anymore. Many breeders are now using assortative matings which produce a much more diverse spread of traits in litters.

[Nemo]

@tanza:

If you find pictures of many of the Jerlin dogs, you will find what I call a helicoptor tail… it is to the low side, has a good curl, but kind of stands up on the back instead of laying down.

Zoni inherited that trait. It can lay on the side more when tightly curled (it doesn't have anywhere else to go) but otherwise it's like a piggy tail. She's got two main lines behind her, Serengeti and Jerlin (Patton).

[DebraDownSouth]

@lvoss:

I disagree about not being able to tell too much about individuals based on the line behind them. …I see more and more that there are not many true lines anymore. Many breeders are now using assortative matings which produce a much more diverse spread of traits in litters.

There are Rottie lines you can spot the moment the dog walks in the ring. Lots of line breeding, some pretty close ones, but developing a very distinct type, look and movement.

But the last 10 yrs, less and less of that with everyone seeming to breed for excessively short backs (I say excessive because of the research showing the severe problems it is causing the breed!), massive bone and larger and larger heads. Soon the breed will truly look more like a mastiff.

I heard a breeder once say all the outcrossing (assortive matings, nice phrase, thanks) was healthier. But the lecturer laughed and said even with a breed as "popular" numbers wise as Rottweilers, our actual gene pool is very small. And truly, you look 10 generations back and it's nearly all the same dogs. I fail to see an issue with line breeding and even tight line breeding when your dogs are healthy.

[dmey]

@tanza:

The Avongara line does have a loose tail curl. Some is due to the fact that the tail set lower. Easy enough to breed out (the set is important, not the curl) Sophie has a lovely second thigh and while a bit long in the back, has a nice level topline.

If you find pictures of many of the Jerlin dogs, you will find what I call a helicoptor tail… it is to the low side, has a good curl, but kind of stands up on the back instead of laying down.

What is a second thigh? ….

[Quercus]

@lvoss:

I disagree about not being able to tell too much about individuals based on the line behind them. If a dog comes from a true line, one where the breeder has worked over many generations to develop their line to the point where they have consistent type then you can come to expect certain things about individuals of that line. Just as Pat said, she looks to certain lines because she has come to expect certain traits from them. If you talk to breeders who have been around for a few decades they will tell you that you used to be able to see a dog from across the ring and know the breeder without ever seeing catalog because of the distinct look of the line. I see more and more that there are not many true lines anymore. Many breeders are now using assortative matings which produce a much more diverse spread of traits in litters.

Agreed Lisa about the current day vs olden day description of lines. I guess I mean if a pedigree has a large percentage of assortative matings, following the 'lines' won't tell you much. But definitely, a pedigree that is following line-breeding, there should be a specific look or type. Absolutely.

[tanza]

@dmey:

What is a second thigh? ….

Second Thigh is the part of the hind leg from the bottom of the shelf (as a good visual point) and the hock

Here is a link to one of my bitches that I bred with a nice long second thigh

http://www.tanzabasenjis.net/files/crystal_hayward.jpg

[DebraDownSouth]

Lovely bitch, Pat.

[dmey]

Beautiful ,…...Ok, thanks for all the info... Trying to learn as much as I can.... I am trying to see wherer my Ayo fits in with all these descriptions....

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Lovely bitch, Pat.

Thanks… I think she is a lovely bitch but then since I bred her I have a vested intersted... that said.... she did not have the best of temperaments so I made the decision that this is not the road I wanted to travel.... so have changed my breeding program... be it as it may... very few litters... but lots of thought and time put into any change or breeding decision.

[Katheris]

The second, or lower thigh, correpsonds to the human shin. It streches from the stifle(knee) to the hock; the bones are the tibia and fibula. The upper thigh begins at the shelf and ends at the stifle. The bone in the upper thigh is the fibula; it corresponds to the thigh(no upper or lower or second or any other confusing terms :-) in the human.

Katy

[tanza]

@Katheris:

The second, or lower thigh, correpsonds to the human shin. It streches from the stifle(knee) to the hock; the bones are the tibia and fibula. The upper thigh begins at the shelf and ends at the stifle. The bone in the upper thigh is the fibula; it corresponds to the thigh(no upper or lower or second or any other confusing terms :-) in the human.

Katy

LOL, if I didn't know what to look at on a dog, I would really be confused now….

I am sure it will make sense to some people.

[Katheris]

Now, now Pat, I didn't intend to confuse you more than you already are confused about anatomy :-) A nice person alerted me to the error, and I'll correct it. The bone in the upper thigh is the femur. Upper thigh with FEMUR from shelf to stifle. Lower thigh with fibula and tibia from stifle to hock. That should help you with basic anatomy!

Katy

[sinbaje]

Here is a graphic of where bones are in dogs plus some terminology which seems unique to basenjis (ie shelf, point of shelf).

I would hate for anyone to leave this conversation more confused then when they entered it and I like/learn better ith visuals.

Hope it helps someone.

[Katheris]

Well done! That is a nice schematic Linda, and provides a very good visual. I'm sure now no one can be confused, except perhaps over the term "second thigh", which most people use to mean the lower thigh, correct? Not the upper thigh?

Katy

[dmey]

Thanks for the diagram.. Hahaha honestly i was laughing because I was so much more confused.

[dmey]

Right.. Hahaha I'm assuming that second thigh means lower thigh and so I think I know what everyone is talking about….

[sinbaje]

Had to figure out what you all were asking about.

Second Thigh is the part of the hind leg from the bottom of the shelf (as a good visual point) and the hock

I see the confusion more clearly.

The upper thigh (femur) is the area between point of buttocks (shelf) and stifle. This area is not referred to as a 2nd thigh or lower thigh.

The lower part of the leg is prolly not best described as lower thigh (which I did in my diagram) or second thigh either - technially it is the lower leg or on humans - the calf/calve area. This area is between point of stifle and point of hock.

Clear as mud? I can always change the diagram if need be - to help. Let me know.

[lvoss]

Straight from the AKC Glossary of terms:

Second thigh That part of the hindquarters from the stifle to the hock, corresponding to the human shin and calf. Lower thigh, including the tibia and fibula.

[Katheris]

Short and sweet! Thank you Lisa for kindly confirming what I originally said, with the exception of my ipad substituting fibula for femur when I first posted. It can be so annoying when that happens. You and Linda are so nice and helpful in clearing up the confusion!
But more importantly, does it make sense to you Dmey?

Katy

Does it finally make sense dmey?

[Katheris]

Argh!!! iPad acting up again. I did NOT mean to ask twice Dmey; I apologize on my and my iPad's behalf!

Katy