Questions on Nemo's pedigree

[Nemo]

The geeky chemist that I am with a genetics curiosity has to ask this question, and it is much easier now that Nemo's pedigree is on the Zande site (Thanks Ivoss! )

His registered name is Nemo Crichton and this is hopefully a link to the pedigree. http://www.pedigrees.zandebasenjis.com/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=825ge7S4&gens=5&db=basenji.dbw

I've been emailing a few breeders to discuss puppy plans and after talking with Wanda Pooley, we realized that Nemo comes from one of her stud dogs, Am Ch AB Lazer The Mischief Maker. He happens to come up on the pedigree three times, twice on Argus's side and once on the dam's side at either 2 to 3 generations back.

For the layman, is this an example of line-breeding or some variation of it?

Thanks,
Clay

[Quercus]

Yes, that would be line breeding

[wizard]

From a biologist's standpoint, yes it is a variation of line-breeding. However, there are enough other dog lines interjected along the way that it should not be a problem. The other bloodlines will swamp the Mischief Maker's contribution.

[Quercus]

@wizard:

From a biologist's standpoint, yes it is a variation of line-breeding. However, there are enough other dog lines interjected along the way that it should not be a problem. The other bloodlines will swamp the Mischief Maker's contribution.

From a dog breeding point of view, there is nothing unhealthy about line breeding IF there are no hidden (or not hidden) problems in the dog being line bred upon. Line breeding is not the same as inbreeding..which is done with much closer relatives…inbreeding more risky as you up the likelyhood of doubling up on recessive/unexpressed genes.

Line and in breeding can be damaging to a breed if unwanted genes are dispersend thru a population...but it also sets type, and desired characteristics. That is how the hundreds of dog breeds have been made and/or evolved...breeding like to like. Breeding back to dogs with the same type, to set the genes solidly in the line.

It is impossible to say whether Lazar's genes have been washed out...because the breeders may have been selecting for something that he possesed...good shoulders, nice temperament...whatever. Selective breeding isn't quite the same as natural selection (obviously) so some characteristics that are bred for may not 'wash out' with the addition of new blood.

Either way....I certainly wouldn't worry about inbreeding in the pedigree linked by the original poster.

[lvoss]

Linebreeding is far less damaging to a genepool as a whole than popular sire syndrome. Linebreeding does decrease the genetic diversity in that line, which makes the dogs from the line prepotent for their traits but as long as other breeders are doing their own thing, there are dogs to outcross to for diversity. Popular Sire Syndrome decreases the genetic diversity of the entire genepool as almost all dogs end up going back to a small number of popular sires.

[tanza]

Hopefully you have had Nemo's DNA done for Fanconi? Also, I am pretty familiar with many of the dogs in his pedigree and there are some hip problems in both the sire and dam of Nemo. So you might want to consider having his hips xray'ed for you own peace of mind.

And he is not that closely line bred, IMO….

[Nemo]

Thanks everyone for the comments, it makes understanding pedigrees a little easier.

@tanza:

Hopefully you have had Nemo's DNA done for Fanconi? Also, I am pretty familiar with many of the dogs in his pedigree and there are some hip problems in both the sire and dam of Nemo. So you might want to consider having his hips xray'ed for you own peace of mind.

And he is not that closely line bred, IMO….

I'm still waiting for the Fanconi results. How do you get the results? by email or on the CP website? It only says DNA status is "received".

I"ll check into the hip issue next time I go to the vet. I wasn't aware Argus had hip problems, I used to be around him alot until he was rehomed with Sally Wuornos this past Spring and he seemed okay. Major hip issues or just not great hips? I'll ask the former owner if he knows something about it.

Thanks!
Clay

[tanza]

@Nemo:

Thanks everyone for the comments, it makes understanding pedigrees a little easier.

I'm still waiting for the Fanconi results. How do you get the results? by email or on the CP website? It only says DNA status is "received".

I"ll check into the hip issue next time I go to the vet. I wasn't aware Argus had hip problems, I used to be around him alot until he was rehomed with Sally Wuornos this past Spring and he seemed okay. Major hip issues or just not great hips? I'll ask the former owner if he knows something about it.

Thanks!
Clay

DNA results will come by email from OFA and also you will receive something in the mail. When did you submit for the test?

As far as hips, I was talking about some of the dogs further back in the pedigree.. and their offspring

[Nemo]

@tanza:

DNA results will come by email from OFA and also you will receive something in the mail. When did you submit for the test?

As far as hips, I was talking about some of the dogs further back in the pedigree.. and their offspring

Oh, I understand now about the hips. Sorry.

They should have gotten the blood sample on Sept 11th.

[tanza]

@Nemo:

Oh, I understand now about the hips. Sorry.

They should have gotten the blood sample on Sept 11th.

You should hear about the DNA soon, I would think… and not a problems about hips... it is sometimes a "really" crazy thing to learn about testing, websites, pedigrees... etc.... and this is a great place to learn..... but the best way is to do the research... but when you get stuck with things you don't understand or can't figure out.. there are many of us here that can help

[wizard]

Regarding the Fanconi test – if they did the blood test after your registration in the Phenome Project took affect, you won't get the result unless you call; if the registration took effect before they did the blood, you'll get a certificate in the mail a few weeks after.

[dmcarty]

The Fanconi result will be quite important as well.

[Nemo]

@wizard:

Regarding the Fanconi test – if they did the blood test after your registration in the Phenome Project took affect, you won't get the result unless you call; if the registration took effect before they did the blood, you'll get a certificate in the mail a few weeks after.

I signed up with the Phenome Project first and sent the forms it generated along with the blood samples and the fee for the test.

[khanis]

@wizard:

From a biologist's standpoint, yes it is a variation of line-breeding. However, there are enough other dog lines interjected along the way that it should not be a problem. The other bloodlines will swamp the Mischief Maker's contribution.

It would be a pity if the other bloodlines ''swamped'' the contribution of Lazer. He was a very nice dog and produced some nice dogs as well, with very little health issues. I love what has been produced by this sire, Cool Jazz, another very nice dog. Lazer pictured below:

The sire and dam are from half-sibling breeding…. not a big deal if the health is good, which I'd suspect it to be. As with Pat, I'd be far more concerned with any future hip issues, as is it is back on both sides, along the pedigree vertically too.

If you can't financially end up doing his hips anytime, just be wary that it is behind him, so don't completely ignore that fact.

[Nemo]

Thanks for the additional info, he is a nice looking dog. More than likely the next puppy I will get will go back to Lazer, so the puppy just by chance will be distantly related to Nemo. Two of the breeders I have talked to are using dogs that happen to go back to Lazer.

When we are talking about issues such as hips, how far back do you need to consider in a pedigree when considering it a potential issue if the closer generations have good hips? I could understand if it is 1 to 2 or maybe 3 generations (which Lazer would be) back, but do you need to look further to be concerned? Nemo is going to be 5 in January, so would the issue, if there is one, have shown up by now or is it typically at an older age?

I'll bring it up to my vet at the next visit. As I remember, x-rays don't cost too much.

[lvoss]

When it comes to hips, what you really need to look at is the vertical pedigree. So you don't just look at the dogs directly behind the dogs being bred but also at the hips of their siblings and offspring. Some of the most prolific producers of HD in basenjis are themselves OFA Good.

The problem with trying to research HD is that owners do not need to make abnormal results public so finding good public vertical data can be hard.