Thank you, @Kembe.
BCOA Sponsorship
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So your saying that you don't want to fix your boy?
I guess I just don't get that.
If I was in your place, I would collect this boy and fix him.
I do know keeping b's who are intact from breeding isn't an easy thing.
There are more than one smart breeder who have had OOPS litters.
And, sorry, if I am being blunt, if your breeding an boy who is affected, that should in NO way be a oops.
Good luck. -
IMO, it would be far better to do surgery while he is healthy and all of his organs are functioning at optimal than to task an already ailing organ with the additional burden of stress and anesthesia. Also, rut for males is extremely taxing on them and I would not want to add that stress to an animal that I know is already prone to hereditary disorder. Especially the stress of having an intact female in the house.
My male would routinely drop weight during rut and would look like I was starving him even though I was feeding him almost 3 times his normal portions. In a fanconi dog it is critical that you are able to keep them in good weight and that they process what nutrients they can as efficiently as possible. IME, intact males are heavily stressed during rut and this directly effects their weight and condition.
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if it becomes too difficult for me to separate them, I have family without dog's who would do what it takes to help. I will surely fix him when his health even slightly starts to decline, I just want to wait til then because of how I feel about spay/neuter just to make life easier.
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sorry my posts are short, its from my phone. I may be able to look up and find their emails. I have gone to a couple shows andbeing blunt, only one person I met was actually approachable.
Shows can be stressful for some people and quite hectic for others. It really helps if you have already talked to someone and they know you are coming. I am very lucky, most of the time my husband comes to shows with me and he is very willing to talk with anyone and everyone while I am getting the dogs ready and in the ring. If I was by myself, it would be very difficult for me to take the time to properly prepare my dogs and to also chat with new people.
I personally prefer to meet people at lure trials since there is a lot more down time during a trial so I can give people more of my time while still making sure that my dogs get to the line on time and prepared.
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if it becomes too difficult for me to separate them, I have family without dog's who would do what it takes to help. I will surely fix him when his health even slightly starts to decline, I just want to wait til then because of how I feel about spay/neuter just to make life easier.
It is not just about easier or keeping them separate. Once my boy knew that it was "the season" whether my girls were in or not, his behavior would change. It became much more severe once I had a girl in the house and he would lose pounds. Not a little bit of weight, A LOT of weight. He would pace, he howl, he would not relax night or day.
I understand what you are saying about not wanting to neuter to take the easy way but I truly feel it is an issue of health. In order to help take stress off his body and perhaps even delay the onset of symptoms, if he were my dog I would neuter him sooner rather than later.
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IMO, it would be far better to do surgery while he is healthy and all of his organs are functioning at optimal than to task an already ailing organ with the additional burden of stress and anesthesia. Also, rut for males is extremely taxing on them and I would not want to add that stress to an animal that I know is already prone to hereditary disorder. Especially the stress of having an intact female in the house.
My male would routinely drop weight during rut and would look like I was starving him even though I was feeding him almost 3 times his normal portions. In a fanconi dog it is critical that you are able to keep them in good weight and that they process what nutrients they can as efficiently as possible. IME, intact males are heavily stressed during rut and this directly effects their weight and condition.
Exactly right lvoss…. totally!!!
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if it becomes too difficult for me to separate them, I have family without dog's who would do what it takes to help. I will surely fix him when his health even slightly starts to decline, I just want to wait til then because of how I feel about spay/neuter just to make life easier.
There is no good reason to keep him in tact… none what so ever... IMO.. and that is without even seeing him... 1. Even according to you he is undersized 2. DNA affected for Fanconi 3. He has really nothing to offer the breed as there are more then enough better conformation correct, good health, good temperaments out there for people to use... Again IMO....
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Are you keeping him intact to show? Is he from a specific line that you need to keep passing on?
If not, why wait.
If its just because you don't like the idea of fixing a boy dog, then please understand, the dog will be much happier and easier to live with once the drive to mate is over. -
To the breeders here, would you sell a female puppy to someone who had a probably affected intact male if they told you the story ahead of time? I'm just curious…especially with a chance there could be an accidental breeding.
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To the breeders here, would you sell a female puppy to someone who had a probably affected intact male if they told you the story ahead of time? I'm just curious…especially with a chance there could be an accidental breeding.
Simple answer from me… NO
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I so hope this fellow gets with quality breeders in his area and can find someone to mentor him.
We all started someplace, but to have an intact male, affected and want a female is very scary for most of us who have been around a while.
Hopefully, he will find someone who can help him see the big picture. -
If keeping him intact is a "guy thing", my husband can attest that it doesn't make any difference. Years ago we had 3 brothers that we kept intact (never bred, but what a pain at times!) because Don didn't want to 'clip' the boys. When we got Topper he was still intact and stayed that way till he was 5, and he started getting really grumpy at the park, I put my foot down and got him neutered, and in a couple of weeks he was his normal self. When we got Ed, I took him right away to get neutered and he hardly even noticed! I know neither of my boys will get testicular cancer, or kidney failure from prostate hypertrophy. So if is a 'guy thing', give it some thought, it is a very minor surgery and it will bother you more than the dog!
It's not to make life easier, it is to keep the dog healthier!
Anne in Tampa -
If keeping him intact is a "guy thing", my husband can attest that it doesn't make any difference. Years ago we had 3 brothers that we kept intact (never bred, but what a pain at times!) because Don didn't want to 'clip' the boys. When we got Topper he was still intact and stayed that way till he was 5, and he started getting really grumpy at the park, I put my foot down and got him neutered, and in a couple of weeks he was his normal self. When we got Ed, I took him right away to get neutered and he hardly even noticed! I know neither of my boys will get testicular cancer, or kidney failure from prostate hypertrophy. So if is a 'guy thing', give it some thought, it is a very minor surgery and it will bother you more than the dog!
It's not to make life easier, it is to keep the dog healthier!
Anne in TampaAnne…. Amen to that and thanks for posting that.....
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I was planning on showing Medjai. NOT for breeding purposes, but to get experience, and get used to the ring.
BUT, the way everyone is ganging up, I feel left with two options, 1) Neuter Medjai now, so that I can join the BCOA and get a bitch from a good breeder as early as next year, and 2) Not neuter Medjai, so that I can show him and get used to the ring, and not join the BCOA until I run into an issue with Medjai that will be eased by me getting him neutered.
By the way, with everyone ganging up like this (on here, and through e-mails I've received) you are making the statement, that unless you spay/neuter all tested affected Basenjis, you will not be able to purchase a good animal from a responsible breeder to show/possibly breed or become a member of the BCOA. That being said, with that stance, you may as well extend it to all carriers too, as there is Little reason to breed a carrier when there are so many clear basenjis out there.
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I don't think anyone who's commented here wants to gang up or even create "sides". They're plainly laying out for you how they receive this situation and probably hoping you'll learn from it. I believe they want you on their "side". I don't know much about how one goes about getting started in breeding but I imagine that for the first few years it's all about being open to learning from a breeder who has more experience and is willing to help you. Regarding affected vs. carrier, breeding a carrier is not ideal for obvious reasons, however, clear x carrier will still produce 50% less carriers than affected x clear.
Can't you show and collect Medjai and fix him before getting the bitch? It sounds like you have some time before getting her.
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I was planning on showing Medjai. NOT for breeding purposes, but to get experience, and get used to the ring.
BUT, the way everyone is ganging up, I feel left with two options, 1) Neuter Medjai now, so that I can join the BCOA and get a bitch from a good breeder as early as next year, and 2) Not neuter Medjai, so that I can show him and get used to the ring, and not join the BCOA until I run into an issue with Medjai that will be eased by me getting him neutered.
By the way, with everyone ganging up like this (on here, and through e-mails I've received) you are making the statement, that unless you spay/neuter all tested affected Basenjis, you will not be able to purchase a good animal from a responsible breeder to show/possibly breed or become a member of the BCOA. That being said, with that stance, you may as well extend it to all carriers too, as there is Little reason to breed a carrier when there are so many clear basenjis out there.
There are many reason to breed a carrier (to a clear only) and there could be reason to breed use sperm from an affected male (note that I said using a male only, I would never ever consider using a bitch that was shown as affected)… We have a limited gene pool and we have almost as many carriers as clears and as long as you then test those pups and if any are used for breeding you go again to a clear. It is easy in one generation to get back to clear. Obviously if there was a reason to use an affected male to a clear, you would get all carriers, but then you go to clears with that offspring and you can still get back to all clears.
BUT again as said before... you have to look at the dog and what does that dog have to offer the breed?
Learning to show should not be a reason to keep your boy in tact, especially for health reasons with being DNA for Fanconi... at least not IMO.... -
You are far from the only one with that opinion Pat. I just see things much differently from a lot of people here, as I'm sure you're aware.
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That is true, but you really are putting a health risk of your boy to the fore front… and with really no good reason for doing so... other then he is healthly now... he is not show quality (and sorry to say that without seeing current pictures, but the ones you posted just when you got him were pretty clear)... and you yourself note that he is undersized...
And other then the show ring, that is the only thing that he is restricted from competed in.. you could still lure course, do obedience, agility...And honestly, you will have a hard time every finding a responsible breeder that will place a bitch with you... and also many responsible breeder require a co-ownership on dogs/bitches that might be bred...
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Yes I am having a hard time, but I still believe it's possible, and I don't need to have full ownership of the dog right now. In the future, I would like to fully own a breeding pair of good, healthy, dogs to breed and continue to further the basenji, but it's not necessary now.
There are over 1,100 members on here, but only a couple hundred are active, and I think that is due to the major difference of opinions that people have. I just am willing to fight long and hard for my opinions.
And I apologize first for the people this may offend, but I do see there as being much more of an elitist attitude among the community of responsible basenji breeders that I don't see in many other breeds' breeders.
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Yes I am having a hard time, but I still believe it's possible, and I don't need to have full ownership of the dog right now. In the future, I would like to fully own a breeding pair of good, healthy, dogs to breed and continue to further the basenji, but it's not necessary now.
There are over 1,100 members on here, but only a couple hundred are active, and I think that is due to the major difference of opinions that people have. I just am willing to fight long and hard for my opinions.
And I apologize first for the people this may offend, but I do see there as being much more of an elitist attitude among the community of responsible basenji breeders that I don't see in many other breeds' breeders.
It may help to remember that the opinions of the breeders and long-time owners/showers on the list are borne of years and years of experience and experiences.
They have learned what it takes to produce healthy, quality dogs; they have seen the results of spay/neuter vs not spay/neuter, accidental breedings, behavioral difficulties. They have been through years of learning the ins and outs of Basenji physical and mental health.Not to knock your efforts or opinions, but you are only 21 and this is your first Basenji. Might not hurt to not form your opinions in concrete just yet, but to let education, experience,and time form them more fully.
Responsible breeders of any breed care deeply and are passionate about their breed and the practices that accompany breeding. If you run into breeders that are not, you may want to look elsewhere to find a quality program.
