@Saving thank you very much for the suggestions!
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Thanks all- the vet's appt. is tomorrow, so I'll keep you posted and I'll ask about the type of test they do.
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If it turns out that it isn't a medical problem, I would take him to see an animal behaviorist. I took mine to see a specialist at a great veterinary college (his regular vet referred us), and they did a very thorough history and evaluation and were very helpful. They did not actually put him on any long term medication–just mild tranquilizers to use as needed--which I rarely used. But I did have a friend whose dog they put on prozac--and she said it did wonders for his separation anxiety--but he had an extreme case.
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My Rocky get's "cabin fever" in the winter also and when he feels he's ben slighted, he'll urinate. Normally this occurs in his kennel but occasionally we'll catch him drawing in big circles on the kitchen floor (lots of fun to clean up, let me tell you). We're in the Chicago-land area also so we are familiar with how short a time frame the dogs can be outside before freezing. To help combat this, we found a good doggy coat (our are Land's End dog blankets) for him to wear to help cut the chill from the wind. This will allow us another five minutes outside on a bad day.
The only thing I have found to combat the behavioral urination (once you rule out all medical issues), is to go back to puppy training and the reward system. Everytime you catch your dog doing something right, reward (be it food or praise). We've found a couple days of intense "catch & reward" works wonders and the urination stops. Find indoor games of catch, play, tug, etc he can work on. I know it doesn't handle the exercise requirements but for Basenji's in Chicago-land, it's all we can do to keep them from freezing their paws off in the snow.
Good luck!
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thanks for all the advice- Tana's appointment went well tonight. The vet said he has some proteins in his urine- nothing extreme, but more than usual. He said it could be just the way he is, it could be a minor infection (but there's no white or red blood cells, so that's not likely) or it could be a sign of Fanconi's. No glucose, though. He said they needed to do another test, called a quantitative micro…I can't remember exactly what it was called. Basically, it would compare the levels of protein to some other chemical in his urine and it would determine if it was Fanconi's.
The sample has to be that first morning urine when it's potent. He also needs his teeth cleaned and a small benign growth on his leg removed, both of which require general anesthesia, so I think we'll drop him off the night before and they can get the sample they need in the morning.
The vet drew blood for some pre-op liver levels and I need to schedule the procedure for some time in the next month. I was sort of distracted when I heard there wasn't glucose in there (phew!) that I didn't get to ask about the anti-depressants or other meds for his mood and anxiety. The doctor's going to call back in the next couple of days with the results of the blood work, so I'll mention it to him then. I think even if he okay'ed us trying it, by the time he got on the meds and got used to it, it would be spring and the issue will have disappeared. So, I'll talk to him about it for next winter.
How expensive does it usually cost to see an animal behaviorist? Is there a website that lists accredited ones? I don't want to get some whack job!
Like I said in my original post, I haven't found a toy that holds his attention for more than a few minutes. The few times we've given him a Kong (filled with peanut butter) he's really liked it, but he's too quick about getting that food out and we have to be careful about what we give him. I guess I have to be more creative. Any ideas? I'm trying to think of some of those tricks zookeepers use for polar bears, big cats, other animals that are prone to cabin fever in the zoo. Maybe freezing some kind of food in an ice cube (he loves ice cubes!) Maybe some treats in a box that he'll have to figure out how to open. We've found some treats that are really basic dog cookies- they're made with normal household ingredients, not a bunch of stuff I've never heard of, so they seem to agree with him. Plus, they're small, so he can get more. ...off to search for a toy thread....
ETA: I don't see a toy thread...is there one?
Oh, Rockyswoman, can you tell me more about your Lands End dog coat? You said it's made out of a blanket? Right now he just has a sweater (argyle- so cute!) and I'd like something that covers his legs and/or belly, since that's where he gets the coldest. I've only found one dog coat that covered the dog's legs, but it was pink and made more for chihuahua-type dogs.
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Well, Tana came back from an overnight vet trip today. He had his teeth cleaned, a little growth on his leg removed and since that other urine test for Fanconi's had to be done with the first morning sample, I dropped him off last night so they could collect it this morning.
The test came back negative, which is good, but I still don't have a medical reason for his seemingly obsessive water drinking and frequent peeing. It's gotten a little better the past 4-5 weeks, but there was one weekend day, where he had a small drink, went outside, then came back in and peed in his kennel 3 times within 3 hours. Huh?
I wasn't able to pick him up at the vet, so my boyfriend did and he didn't ask the right questions, so I'm going to call the vet tomorrow with some follow-up stuff. Does anyone know the healthy amount of water he should be drinking? I've heard one ounce for every pound he weighs, but I wanted a second opinion on that. Our first step will probably be to make sure he gets about that much water and see if things improve. I'm hoping with the better weather, it will also improve, but I am going to talk to the vet about anti-depressants, at least for next winter.
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does he pee a lot when he isn't in his kennel? or is it only related to the kennel?
FWIW, I have never heard of a vet requiring a first urine of morning for a Fanconi test. The urine test is really simple…either there is sugar in the urine, or there isn't. THEN a test called a blood gas should be run. That is the definitive test for Fanconi.
From the outside I would wonder if your vet knew what to look for for Fanconi. I could be completely off base here...but it might be something to consider. There are many vets that have never seen Fanconi (or a basenji) before.
Have you tested Tana for sugar in the urine yourself? You can (and should)buy Diastix at some drugstores (definitely online) and test his urine for sugar every month. Make sure you make it clear to the pharamcist that you need the ones that check for sugar in the urine...sometimes they will tell you 'you don't need that' because there are better tests for diabetics now...but explain it is for a dog that may have a disease that spills sugar in the urine.
The symptoms sound like Fanconi. And if I were you, I wouldn't rest until I saw the results that said "there is no sugar in the urine".
Good luck
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How expensive does it usually cost to see an animal behaviorist? Is there a website that lists accredited ones? I don't want to get some whack job!/QUOTE]
It was several years ago, and it wasn't cheap–I think around $175--but worth every penny! Your vet may be able to recommend one. Mine was a vet that specialized in animal behavior at an excellent veterinary college. We only needed to go for one visit (it was about 2-1/2 hours because they were very thorough). Then, I would call with updates on Max, and we talked on the phone a few times (no charge).
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Oh, Rockyswoman, can you tell me more about your Lands End dog coat? You said it's made out of a blanket? Right now he just has a sweater (argyle- so cute!) and I'd like something that covers his legs and/or belly, since that's where he gets the coldest. I've only found one dog coat that covered the dog's legs, but it was pink and made more for chihuahua-type dogs.
We got ours thru Land's End (the clothing retailer). Their doggie coats are made of the same materials as their winter parkas. They normally have a tough velcro front (long overlaps across the chest so no breeze gets in) and a belly band that velcro's high on the side. It pretty much covers our Papillion's entire belly; Rocky's belly band doesn't quite cover his entire belly but it certainly does make a difference! Haven't found any coat for a medium sized dog that has legs attached to it. Ever thought of tube socks? (We put our old ratty baby socks on the dogs to keep the snow from packing between their toes while running around outside.)
Good luck!
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Ok, I found out the name of the test he was given- it was a Urine Protein Creatnine test, and it's basically to determine if he has excessive proteins in his urine. The vet said that since the level was normal, there was no reason to go into further testing.
I also found out that 900-1200 mL per day is a healthy amount of water for him, so we're going to have to start measuring his water. :rolleyes:
When he goes in to get his stitches taken out, I'll ask about the anti-depressants for next winter.
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Nope….vet should be looking for sugar in the urine, not proteins. Honestly, I am not making it up. I hate to say this, but your vet is not looking for the right things. Your dog is presenting with symptoms of the most common genetic disease in the breed. Go here to read all about it, and if you have to, print it out for your vet.
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Peeing his crate 3 x's in 3 hrs?? That is extremely excessive. I'll go with Quercus/Andrea on this one. Sounds like a medical problem. Check thyroid as well as that can cause really odd problems. Also please don't tell me you filled the KONG with PB! You really only need a little way up inside so they have to work on it to get it out. You may want to get a smaller kong if he's getting the PB very easily. He may also have depression! He's had a few changes and may not be quite as secure which may compound any problems he may have!
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You can test your dog's urine yourself for glucose. Here is a link with what you need and how to do it. http://www.barkless.com/guide/strip.html
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Regarding the PB/kong, you can also try freezing the kong with the PB inside so that it isn't so easy to get out. There are a few really good threads on here with toy ideas. There's a few in the 'Basenji talk' section that have some really good suggestions but it's just a matter of searching, there's a LOT of posts in here on a daily basis so if you're not keeping up it takes a while to search for specific things. Good luck and definately get the urnie sticks… I have to commend you for your efforts/concern, you're a very good B-mom.
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FTR….my dogs hate PB...all of them!?!
When I stuff a Kong, I use creamcheese and kibble or broken biscuits. I also will use cheeze whiz in a sterilized bone. My dogs seem to like the sterilized bones better than the kongs.
Frozen canned catfood, or bratwurst also works well for stuffing. As Spitfire mentioned, there are a bunch of toy ideas somewhere here.
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There are always good ideas hopping around-and always alt. to pb,anything that can be stuffed into them!
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The test my vet did initially back in February found no glucose in his urine.
No, I didn't literally FILL a kong with peanut butter! It was 2 or 3 knife-fulls with a couple of small treats.
Since the last test, I've been giving him about 1000 ml of water every day. He doesn't always drink that much, but he's able to get at least that much. He hasn't peed in his kennel once, he's not pitching fits at night, he's a lot more relaxed and he's peeing a more significant amount when we take him out. And winter's over. I don't think that's a coincidence. I'll still try to get some glucose strips to monitor the situation, but I'm chalking this up to a seasonal thing. When he goes to get his stitches taken out from his leg later this week, I'm going to talk to them about anti-depressants or something for next winter.
Thanks for all your help!
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Well, two variables changed at once right? The season turned, and you limited his water. So to know which one helped you might want to offer him unlimited water again during the nice weather, and see if the episodes come back.
I think it is possible that this is a behavior disorder, but I would be much more inclined to guess that is a form of dog OCD with the water drinking, than something having to do with the weather. I have never heard of dog seasonal disorder, and I don't think that they treat SD in humans with antidepressants, but with melatonin? Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But, I think before I pursued an antidepressant, I would want to consult with a veterinary behaviorist. Also, the intent with dog anti-depressants is to use behavioral modification while treating, so the dog can be weaned off the drug in time. You probably already know this, but I feel it is worth stating. It sounds like you are already doing some effective behavior mod, and that is a good thing.
I am glad that your vet did check for glucose, my faith is restored
And yes, it is important that every Basenji owner test month for glucose in the urine. I found them on Amazon.com under Bayer Diastix for $13.99 for 50 strips. -
I'm glad it's clearing up for you.
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We took him in for his yearly exam last February, had him checked for bladder issues, diabetes, Fanconi's, etc. and everything was negative, so it was determined to be a behavioral issue. We made a few changes- not letting him on the couch anymore and supervising him more closely in the house, closing off certain rooms. By the time spring rolled around, his mood was better and the urinating stopped (except for a few instances, which were truly accidental; I can't blame him for that.)
All of a sudden, he’s urinating in his kennel and in places around the house on a daily basis (some days more than once.) We’ve tried regimenting his water intake- giving him water, then taking him outside 20-45 minutes later when he should be ready to go. Some days this works, some days not. He doesn’t seem to indicate when he has to go about half the time now, by going to the door, which wasn’t a problem before.
Don't know if you still have Tana or still have a problem but I recently found this forum and was reading old threads. I thought that in case you still get email notification on this, I'd comment for you.
I can't believe how much this sounds like Cushing's disease that my previous dog (dalmation mix) died from. If you're still having his urination problems, and he's negative for Fanconi's, kidney failure and diabetes, the next test should be for Cushings. It is basically either an adrenal gland or pituitary gland carcinoma that causes increased cortisol and ADH secretion. You would notice both increased urination, "forgetting housetraining" but not like he was marking, increased thirst and shape change. Cushing's dogs get very wan, thin faces and start getting large in their torso and abdomen. Additionally, due to the increased cortisol, symptoms of arthritis and other chronic pain conditions actually will decrease or disappear. Once they have Cushing's, they can be placed on medication to control the symptoms. My vet told us that progression of the cancer is about 2-3 years unless you treat for cancer. We were told the adrenal gland form is treatable (although not a great success rate) and can be biopsied, while the pituitary form can't be biopsied (the pituitary is in the center of the two cerebral hemispheres of the brain) and isn't treatable. With the medication our 11 year old dalmation got two more good years and until about 4-5 months before he died, the urination problems were solved. We did have to keep increasing his dosage and monitoring him with the vet.
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Very interesting, PhocoenaGirl. I looked up the other symptoms of Cushing's (on this site) and they specifically said excessive thirst/urination, increased appetite, weight gain around the belly (more due to the abdominal muscles getting weaker than actual weight gain- they just look more "pot-bellied"), lethargy, panting, losing/thinning fur on the torso and frequent skin infections.
Obviously, he has the thirst and urination issue. He's always had a healthy appetite, and he's always been a bit more lazy than other basenji's. But over this past summer, there were a few times when he'd be panting more than usual. I don't know about other basenji's, but Tana's not a panter, and the few times he has panted a lot, it was obvious that it was hot and he'd exerted himself recently. Cooling off and a drink helped, but this summer was relatively mild compared to past summer and still, there were a few times he was panting, out of the blue. I have noticed his fur thinning a little on his sides. I noticed it about 6 months ago, so I attributed it to his summer coat, but now I'm noticing it's not getting as thick as it usually does this time of year. And the frequent skin infections (another website also said "thin skin") also worries me because suddenly this year, he's been getting callouses on his elbows, some of which look a little raw. We really do keep him out of the kennel as much as we possibly can, but I thought maybe he's just been in there more because my boyfriend and I have been working more, so maybe s was in there more. But now I'm thinking that's what this is.
Well, I'm glad we maybe have something to go on. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and see if he was tested for Cushings at his check-up back in February. If this is Cushings, could anyone give me an idea of the cost of the drugs they use to treat this? That article I linked to seems to say they can treat it surgically or just with medicine.
