@tanza said in Breeder and Family Intro to Breed:
It is not the same....
yeah... it actually is
Dogo Habari Breeding plans 2012
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As I had said, I have seen dominant blacks with some interesting color variation in their black. It is not brindling but perhaps a sabling that causes and intermix of reddish black in the coat. One owner of such a dog noticed that the each hair actually seemed banded with a black and the red black. Another seemed to have a black over coat and a lighter undercoat. In my own dominant black, she seems to have expressed a single stripe of red in her coat so perhaps there is something in those cells deactivating her black gene. So I agree that there is plenty we don't understand about genetics that can cause variations that we don't know how to explain yet but I do think that we have a pretty good grasp of black, brindle, and red and it is exactly as I and then CongoMama explained.
I have seen some of what you are describing, particularly with this reddish-brown color mixed with the black and usually on the back legs. My b/w bitch has that and has a maternal grandsire that is brindle. However, she also has two b/w cousins with no brindle in their pedigrees (b/w all comes from the same part of the pedigree) which have some interesting reddish-brown coloring in parts of their coat. It's almost seems like they are tri-colored underneath their b/w coats. I've listened to a number of interesting conversations about it between breeders trying figure out where it is coming from. So I'm guessing there might be a number of causal factors that could lead to these variations. If we had more detailed observations of these less obvious variations of coat colorings/patterns for a range of dogs perhaps we could start generating some more solid hypotheses.
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I have seen some of what you are describing, particularly with this reddish-brown color mixed with the black and usually on the back leg .
A sprinkling on the back of the hind legs can sometimes mean that the dog carries the "fula" gene. I don't think this is the case with Johnny.
A long-time Basenji breeder told me a long time ago that if you can see a reddish cast on a dominant black in bright sunlight then it means it can produce red puppies. I do not know if there is any research to verify this though. I have seen the reddish cast but I have not seen the brindlish cast that Johnny has. It is interesting.
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I was guessing that the red sprinkling meant they were tri-factored. I know one of the blacks I mentioned is. I'm guessing my b/w might be as her sire is.
visit BCOA on Facebook. http://facebook.com/basenji.org
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In thinking this through a bit more today, and studying Johnny's picture and seeing stripes (my opinion of course) vs. banding of red hairs or bleed through, as well as pictures of Boston Terriers that look black/white but are in fact brindle, with very little red coming through, one possibility we have not considered is that Johnny could in fact be a very heavily brindled basenji and not black/white as originally thought. Will be even more interesting now to see what he produces in this breeding. Keep the group posted please, Arlene. Thank you.
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This is all very interesting and I like CongoMama's suggestion that Johnny could be a brindle!
I'm sure they'll be lovely puppies any way and that you'll get much pleasure from them, Arlene. Congratulations.
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That's the thing with Johnny, he has actual stripes. He has more than you can see in the pictures. He is not as black as some b/w's either. Which, that in itself may mean nothing, but combine it with the stripes and you begin to wonder. Which is why I put in brackets a reverse brindle. If it was mottling or just patches, that was one thing, but stripes are another. I will keep everyone updated. I am sure you are interested, Lisa in what comes out.
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redish cast, when in the sun for example, is common in most "black" animals, as they are actually, really dark brown. there is no natural "real" black ….
right?
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redish cast, when in the sun for example, is common in most "black" animals, as they are actually, really dark brown. there is no natural "real" black ….
right?
In horses, there are "true" blacks that don't fade in the sun, and they really do appear black. I believe they are genetically different from fading blacks. And I have certainly seen dogs that don't fade. My Border Collie was black, and didn't appear to be anything else, despite spending a lot of time out in the sun.
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i had heard or read somewhere that blach doesnt exist in nature as a pigment.. and that everything we see as black is really just very dark brown…
not sure if that is true.My great dane was black and when the sun hit you could see it was reddish... -
My Topper was always very black, almost blue-black. No red at all, even inside his ears the skin was very dark, no pink at all. He never faded even in lots of bright sunlight in the summers. No reddish undercoat. I'm no expert but would say he was a 'pure black and white'.
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Truly black will have dark skin. And I have seen both horses and dogs that show no other colour in their coats, even under intense light.
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Here's another thought, or something I just noticed when Anne mentioned the ears. Shadow's inside ears are black/black-Johnny's are not. Could this be an indication?? Johnny's are black on the top part, going down to pinkish/grey on the bottom canal. Anyone else notice anything on their black dogs' ears?
BTW-Johnny update, finally got the OFA back on Johnny's hips-they are rated good. Now just waiting for the DNA test to come back. If I don't hear anything this week, I will have to call them. It's just about seven weeks now that it was sent in.
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Johnny is also clear/normal for Fanconi Syndrome. So puppies should be clear since both Sugar and Johnny are clear. Yay!
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Great news on the health results.
Shadow's inside ears are black/black-Johnny's are not. Could this be an indication?? Johnny's are black on the top part, going down to pinkish/grey on the bottom canal. Anyone else notice anything on their black dogs' ears?
I don't think it is conclusive about his genetic color. Reds and tris are usually pinkish on the inside, blacks are usually dark inside though I have seen some with both black and pinkish inside. Brindles can have specks inside the ears.
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3 out 3 of my black and whites have pink in their ears. Rally's are the blackest and Kyo's the pinkest but all have pink in their ears.
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I forgot to mention that all colors can have blackish towards the tips at times. The hair gets "crumbly" and can be rubbed off. I do not know why this happens to some dogs but I think it may have to do with indoor dryness.
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That would explain Shadow's ears. They are crumbly on the inside, but he also likes to lay on the heat vent.
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Babies have been born on December 17, 2012. 4 boys, 2 girls. All pics are posted on my FB page, Dogo Habari Basenjis. 2 Red boys, 1 Red Girl, 1 Black Girl, 1Black Boy, 1 Tri boy.
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Congrats on the babies! Hope all are doing well.
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Congrats on a nice sized variety litter!
