I agree with Lisa… while your list can be helpful, puppymillers have learned to look very reputable making it much harder to look at the website to determine. The bottom line is, no matter if they sell one breed or more, they can be a puppymill. And there are certainly some very legit responsible breeders with 2 or even 4 breeds! My entry into dog breeding/showing was a woman who had English bulldogs, her daughter had aghans and setters. If they don't have pedigrees and health testing info on the web page, I'd run. If they have it and you check OFA and find they falsified, or only maybe the current or some of their dogs have testing.. run. The rest they can fake or pretend but generations of health clearances generally aren't part of a puppymill.
Large litters vs small litters. Which is best for puppies development, temperament,
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Are you having a resource guarding issue with your puppy? Why are you so persistent in trying to make resource guarding an issue of litter size or raising?
I think these are fair questions. Yes we are concerned that our new puppy might be showing signs of resource guarding. So we are researching it and asking questions. I do no think we are making a issue of litter size as much as we are just not willing to dismiss it as a possibility.
I do not know if I would use the term persistent in your second question, but in our minds, it does make logical sense that liter size can be a factor when it comes to competition for food or any other resource. Again, we are researching and asking questions.
In order to obtain a clear picture, we certainly need to understand what is behind certain behaviors. So we are exploring possible triggers. To us this similar to a nature versus nurture type of inquiry.
Just as anyone would study the human, there are both psychological, and sociological reasons for the behavior we are observing.
Knowing the factors that exist, and how the surroundings that a puppy experiences at a young age affect them, all contribute to information that might and can be important and useful.
So far we feel the discussion has been very interesting.
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I suppose I approach researching a topic a bit different. Rather than focusing on one aspect that may have no effect on the issue, I would be looking into the issue itself and what is known about its causes and how to manage it. So rather than asking about large litter sizes and whether it causes resource guarding isn't a better question, What causes resource guarding and how can I help head off some of the tendencies I am seeing before they become a major issue?
As for my use of the word persistent, I feel you are being persistent because several people have stated that they have seen no correlation between litter size and resource guarding and yet you have repeated the question.
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I suppose I approach researching a topic a bit different. Rather than focusing on one aspect that may have no effect on the issue, I would be looking into the issue itself and what is known about its causes and how to manage it. So rather than asking about large litter sizes and whether it causes resource guarding isn't a better question, What causes resource guarding and how can I help head off some of the tendencies I am seeing before they become a major issue?
As for my use of the word persistent, I feel you are being persistent because several people have stated that they have seen no correlation between litter size and resource guarding and yet you have repeated the question.
Wouldn't we be better off in the future understand what causes the issue instead of just learning to treat the symptom? There may be a time we choose to add another puppy to our home, so like health testing to attempt to insure good health, we view understanding the cause of a possible issue important to know and understand.
Yes I agree there are a few people in the thread that have said that litter size is irrelevant. Instead of playing semantics we will accept the word persistent. Let just say we choose just not to accept the conclusion of a few people when other resources may indicate something different.
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What resources have you found that indicate something different?
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What resources have you found that indicate something different?
One of our sources happens to be an Animal Nutritionist with a Master's degree that we personally know.
We also know the internet is full of resources and we are currently exploring them. The Basenji forum is just one internet source that we happened to start with.
While I would not say this link, is anything conclusive, there are many valid points in it.
http://www.helium.com/items/2085944-causes-of-food-aggression-in-dogs
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Again, you didn't start a thread called, What Causes Resource Guarding? You came to this discussion having already decided what answer you want to hear. You want people to say that litter size causes it and you don't seem to like the answer that it is largely genetic.
If you want to learn more about Resource Guarding then I suggest the book Mine! by Jean Donaldson.
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Be very careful putting stock into one person. That person always has biases. And, just because someone has this degree and that degree, doesn't mean they have the experience and knowledge that has dealt with many different forms of the situation you are looking for. Resource guarding has many different factors-not always the same. You cannot pinpoint one specific cause, or event for this.
Resource guarding is not a 'symtom'. It is an effect. Usually to stimuli over time that has created the effect. Food for thought.
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One of our sources happens to be an Animal Nutritionist with a Master's degree that we personally know.
My niece is a veterinarian, so what?
I would think breeders would be the best source of information on this topic. I just came back from having coffee with a breeder (not Basenjis) who is a friend of mine, and posed the question to her. She said she thought it might be possible if a breeder with a large litter was negligent, otherwise no. She sees to it that her pups have all the access to food that they need. With a particularly large litter…...she has had them in the double digits.......she separates the pups into two groups, with only one group at a time having access to the bitch. No difficulties then for everyone to find a spot to nurse, but she says generally it isn't an issue anyway. When she starts them on solid food, again she makes sure there is lots for everyone.
She did mention that in her breed the adults are known to be resource guarders in respect to not sharing food with other dogs. This seems to be irrespective of litter size, socialization, or anything else.
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Be very careful putting stock into one person. That person always has biases. And, just because someone has this degree and that degree, doesn't mean they have the experience and knowledge that has dealt with many different forms of the situation you are looking for. Resource guarding has many different factors-not always the same. You cannot pinpoint one specific cause, or event for this.
Resource guarding is not a 'symtom'. It is an effect. Usually to stimuli over time that has created the effect. Food for thought.
We do agree that a person always has biases. It even surfaces, with well know experts and authors.
We are not putting stock in one person specifically, but I will say that person we mentioned has additional qualifications and experience including breeding and deals with dogs on a daily basis. Those things are separate from the degree in animal nutrition.
While we do accept and respect his education, experience, hands-on, and personal knowledge, we also realize this is just one person with one opinion.
The link that was posted in addition references a person that also has experience that goes beyond their writings which includes being very involved in the dog world..
As we continue to search the net for other resources, there are posts on other websites of different breeds from people who are breeding where litter size and resource guarding is mentioned.
We are not going to debate whether resource guarding is a symptom, or an effect. In our view that is semantics.
We are also not going to get side tracked debating the title of our post. Instead we choose to stay on topic. Our interest has to do with whether litter size affects development, temperament, and socialization. If resource guarding is included in this topic so be it. If food aggression is part of this topic so be it. If asking what a breeder does to socialize a dog is included so be it. If you want to add litter nutrition we can do that too.
Is there something wrong with asking these questions? Is there some expectation that someone always has to agree with the answers that are given?
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eeeefarm
We do not disagree with what you have stated above.
What is interesting is that your post points out something different than the others have. Your mentioned your breeder friend takes this step with a large litter.
"She sees to it that her pups have all the access to food that they need. With a particularly large litter…...she has had them in the double digits.......she separates the pups into two groups, with only one group at a time having access to the bitch. No difficulties then for everyone to find a spot to nurse, but she says generally it isn't an issue anyway. When she starts them on solid food, again she makes sure there is lots for everyone."
This is something significant. We thank you for being interested enough to ask your friend.
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Have you looked into other breeds? My understanding is that for working foxhounds all the adult dogs are fed together and there is no food/resource guarding. Foxhounds also have LARGE litters.
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I do think there is a difference between breeds, especially ones that are generally considered pack breeds, that is to say ones that work as a pack. Beagles would also fit that situation. On the other hand, sled dogs to not eat together, but work as a team.
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Yes we have.
Here is an example of one site where we found a similar type of discussion. Of course there are varying opinion's just like in this forum.
http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/breeding/78083-litter-size-influence-individual-pup.html
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I do think there is a difference between breeds, especially ones that are generally considered pack breeds, that is to say ones that work as a pack. Beagles would also fit that situation. On the other hand, sled dogs to not eat together, but work as a team.
In one of the forum discussion's that we came across, there is mention where one breeder crates and feeds their pups individually from 7 weeks.
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Breeders all have different ways that they raise their litters, it doesn't mean they are doing those things to prevent something like resource guarding or that it is an effective method of doing so. Also, the breeder may not even know how many puppies have developed resource guarding tendencies. Not all owners are willing to share with the breeder, especially when they are having challenges. I know that seems counter-intuitive since the breeder should be resource for helping when you encounter a challenge but it is the pattern seen by breeders over and over again.
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Breeders all have different ways that they raise their litters, it doesn't mean they are doing those things to prevent something like resource guarding or that it is an effective method of doing so. Also, the breeder may not even know how many puppies have developed resource guarding tendencies. Not all owners are willing to share with the breeder, especially when they are having challenges. I know that seems counter-intuitive since the breeder should be resource for helping when you encounter a challenge but it is the pattern seen by breeders over and over again.
We are sure this is very true. We bet there are many owners that either do not recognize or who may be embarrassed to approach their breeder for help. We also believe that many owners will wait until it gets to be a bigger problem and then blame the dog or breeder. We also agree that the owner has to take steps to deal with the issues a dog might have.
We also believe that factors like the factors mentioned( One of them being resource guarding) whether its food, a toy, or something else, does impact the development, temperament, and socialization of a dog. The Dominant dog in the litter, does not experience the same treatment from the other in the pack that the runt does. One would think that the larger the litter the more pack members to compete with.
The fact that the Dominant dog or others in the pack may not have to fight for a space at the bowl or for a toy. There are others in the pack that will give them up willingly. So wouldn't stand to reason that the Dominant dog might be socialized differently? Have a different temperament, and socialize differently? If there is never competition for food or other resource what reason does a Dominant Dog in the pack have to be aggressive.
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Dogs, much like children do not always have to have a reason behind the things they do. Just because a dog is confident enough to get resources doesn't mean for whatever reason, it wants to share.. I truly don't believe one can find answers to everything, some things are just "what they are"
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The definition of dominance is that it is established through force or aggression, so if you have a truly "dominant" puppy it got that standing through fighting for priority access to the resources. http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/dominance_in_dogs_is_not_a_personality_trait
Breeders should be watching each individual puppy for various behaviors that may be a tip off that some special care needs to be taken in their socialization in certain situations. This is not unique to resource guarding.
Resource guarding isn't about the availability of the resource, see Myth 3, http://4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf
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Definitions are subjective and it all depends who is defining them. There is Dominance and then there is Domineering. They are two different things.
Just because a dog exhibits Domineering behavior does not mean that dog is the Dominant in the pack.
Control by force or aggression is not dominance, its actually is control by fear. Interestingly enough, we as humans are supposed to be the Pack leader with our dogs. In other words we are the Dominant one in the pack. Are you suggesting we obtain this with our dogs through force and aggression?
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You reply makes me think you didn't read the article, which is actually pretty detailed in explaining dominance in animals and the misconceptions surrounding the term.
