Please see my previous message and also my response to your direct email to me about this.
Hello from Sorel-Tracy QUEBEC Canada
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Basically basenji are un-trainable.
Oh, I would strenuously disagree with that assessment! They are very trainable, just not very biddable. There is a huge difference. Basenjis want to please themselves, so the trick is to make your idea their idea. Basenjis will work extremely well for positive reinforcement, assuming you can find something that is salient enough. They will also work to avoid positive punishment, but they have to be absolutely convinced that there is no clever way to escape the consequences. Clicker training a Basenji is loads of fun, and you will end up with a clever dog that will perform many complicated tasks, as long as the reward is sufficiently desirable.
Do expect those moments when you issue a command only to be met with an expression that conveys complete ignorance of what you are asking for. Think "cat in dog's body", and you have the psychology.
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Welcome to the Forum. I totally agree with eeeefarm, Basenjis are trainable but usually only if they want to. Some learn so much more quickly than others. I've had many experiences of Basenjis being trained by watching other dogs, so if your Newfie is well trained it's highly likely that Albert'straining will be helped by Shiloh.
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thanks for the encouragement
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I think you'll be fine. Have you tried clicker training with your Newfie? It's lots of fun. Basenjis are trainable, but they are very self-serving. All of mine have enjoyed "working" and enjoy figuring things out. But don't expect to be doing lots of reps. Stop while you're ahead. But really, Newfies aren't exactly reputed to be the easiest dogs to train either. Just don't expect your basenji to jump into that water if you're in trouble! (I mean that's why you have the Newf, right?)
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Oh yes Newfs are trainable, check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZChqmn4v1BM&sns=fb
Good job, you don't see too many big dogs in freestyle! -
that's very impressive! and for the record, I didn't say they weren't trainable, just not reputed to be one of the easier breeds to train.
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The Newfie is not the concern. He has beef adorable all his life and responds well to our commands. He is starting to show some leadership to Albert our new commer.
Robert
PS. I enjoyed the video!
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eeeefarm I assume you went tilt at my opening statement and were unable to read anything else I said fallowing that. Most people I know consider a dog that follows directions and obeys commands a trained animal. The definition of biddable, if not playing cards, is following directions or obeying commands. Something you agree is is not particularly Basenji like. Positive Punishment? Now that is a curious phrase. I am certain if you try using it on my very Alpha partner JaBok You would be unable to be in the same county with him unless you kept him tied up. I do agree with the cat in a dogs body analogy. Cats are also pretty much un-trainable. If you are able to get them to bond with you they will learn to adapt to your wants, needs and desires. Most people seem seem to think that a dog that learns to do everything you tell it is smart. I have always felt that dogs that do everything you tell it are kinda dumb and are unable to think for themselves. When JaBok and I go out to move the horses from one pasture to another He is right there and knows just what to do. He once saw what I was doing and because of his bond with me he wants to engage and assist. I never taught him any of it. Than I am unable to stop him when he sees a deer and he will chase it until it disappears That is instinct and he does not understand why I don't help him catch it. I would really like it if I could train him not to chase them. It has been ten years now and I have had no success. I am 70 And have worked with lots of dogs and horses with a reasonable degree of success. JaBok is a different story. We do everything together he comes when I call him he usually gets into the truck when I tell him. If he does not want to go he won't get in. I am completely unable to catch him if he really does not want to be caught. He will run to the house though and that tells me he wants to stay home so I let him in. Does he have me trained? If you re-read my previous statement I think you will see that I was attempting to explain how to get that which is Basenji to live in co-existence with you.
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I agree with Elfinsailor in a couple of things. These dogs do learn by observation-Shadow has watched me on different things and knows how to do certain things by watching. He is very intense when watching. You can see the wheels turning in his eyes trying to figure out how he's going to get his little paws around something. Co-existing is really important. If they don't want to do something they won't-period. I always tell my puppy people to pretend they have perpetual two year old afoot. They think, reason somewhat, and throw temper tantrums once in awhile. They will try to push your buttons to get a reaction as well. So if there is something they are doing, it's because they want to do it, not to please you, but to please them. It's the typical 'What's in it for me?' attitude. I still say when the newf has had enough, he will (hopefully) put the puppy in it's place. Big dogs tend to be very, very gentle with puppies. In fact, IMO, Basenji's tend to put up a lot with their puppies until about six-seven months. Then the puppies tend to get a little too irritating and they get reprimanded sharply.
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eeeefarm I assume you went tilt at my opening statement and were unable to read anything else I said fallowing that.
No, I read everything you wrote.
Most people I know consider a dog that follows directions and obeys commands a trained animal. The definition of biddable, if not playing cards, is following directions or obeying commands. Something you agree is is not particularly Basenji like.
With which I totally agree. However, saying they are untrainable is a different thing.
Positive Punishment? Now that is a curious phrase. I am certain if you try using it on my very Alpha partner JaBok You would be unable to be in the same county with him unless you kept him tied up.
Positive punishment, in the Operant vocabulary, simply means something added that tends to diminish the unwanted behaviour. It doesn't have to be severe to be effective, and definitely will work with Basenjis if…...and it is an important "if"......they are absolutely convinced that this consequence will occur every single time they perform the unwanted action. Think horses and electric fence, and you get the picture.
I do agree with the cat in a dogs body analogy. Cats are also pretty much un-trainable.
There are videos on line of cats doing agility obstacles on command. Again, this is using positive reinforcement and will work well for cats…..and Basenjis......if the reinforcement is salient enough.
Most people seem seem to think that a dog that learns to do everything you tell it is smart. I have always felt that dogs that do everything you tell it are kinda dumb and are unable to think for themselves.
There is "smart" (intelligent) and there is "biddable", and it doesn't have to be one or the other. Some dogs…...Border Collies would be a good example......are definitely both. Eager to work with the handler, but capable of working on their own. A good sheepdog is amazing to watch, particularly in a "silent gather', where no help is offered by the handler and the dog must make his own decisions. Basenjis, while not usually biddable, can certainly demonstrate they are intelligent, often while outsmarting their owners!
When JaBok and I go out to move the horses from one pasture to another He is right there and knows just what to do. He once saw what I was doing and because of his bond with me he wants to engage and assist. I never taught him any of it.
He sounds like an unusual Basenji. None of mine have been the least bit interested in herding, although I believe we have another member on here who does have Basenjis with such an inclination.
Than I am unable to stop him when he sees a deer and he will chase it until it disappears That is instinct and he does not understand why I don't help him catch it. I would really like it if I could train him not to chase them. It has been ten years now and I have had no success.
Doable but not easy, and would definitely involve consistent positive punishment. If chasing them doesn't put him at risk, why bother?
I am 70 And have worked with lots of dogs and horses with a reasonable degree of success. JaBok is a different story. We do everything together he comes when I call him he usually gets into the truck when I tell him. If he does not want to go he won't get in. I am completely unable to catch him if he really does not want to be caught. He will run to the house though and that tells me he wants to stay home so I let him in. Does he have me trained? If you re-read my previous statement I think you will see that I was attempting to explain how to get that which is Basenji to live in co-existence with you.
Yes, I do understand that. I am not a lot younger than you, and have had 5 Basenjis over a span of 40 plus years. My first was the most like your JaBok. She was the most biddable Basenji I have owned. She would come when called quite reliably, and seemed to care about pleasing me. I wrote about her here:
