Test Results

[khanis]

@DebraDownSouth:

? IND… do they retest

Am I wrong because I just found this stating something I think is absolutely wrong...that IND will NOT be affected. Since there are "probable clear" who have indeed come down with Fanconi (Gronto's own dog for example), I do hope someone explains why I am wrong or this gets rephrased.

http://khanisbasenjis.com/fanconi.html

IND = Indeterminate, or Indeterminate between Probable Clear and Probable Carrier
(this dog will NOT become affected with Fanconi Syndrome)<<<

Please note there is only ONE dog that is said to be Affected that tested Clear. This is Gonto's dog.

There are only TWO dogs that test as Carriers but ended up spilling sugar, therefore were Affected. Both have since passed away to Fanconi Syndrome. One of these was mine and multiple tests prove she DID test as a Carrier. I am of the understanding that her DNA must have recombined, giving her the Carrier status, even though she was actually Affected.

We are to treat the IND as Carriers for breeding purposes. Since we do not have a definite assurance they are Clear, it is the wisest plan of action.

[tanza]

Ace and Diamond tested Carrier and are now affected, I don't think they have crossed the rainbow bridge?

[sharronhurlbut]

Good news on Jaggers results.

[khanis]

@tanza:

Ace and Diamond tested Carrier and are now affected, I don't think they have crossed the rainbow bridge?

Actually Pat, there was a data entry error.
When re-testing their original DNA, they are Affecteds.
New cheek swabs show them as Affecteds.

As I said, and this was confirmed with Jon over the past weekend, there were ONLY TWO Basenjis that tested as Carriers AND spilled sugar.
It would not have mattered how many times they were tested, their DNA still showed them as Carriers. Period.
It wasn't a human error in the lab. It is their funky DNA.

Neither Diamond nor Ace actually TEST as a CARRIER.
Their DNA shows Affected, which stands to reason they are spilling sugar.
Obviously it was their health that prompted the need for another test.

[tanza]

The results that they received were Carriers, Kathy, by their own statements (the owners)…. so I am sure that both owners considered them safe. We now know different and that strip testing is still need.

I am not knocking the test, only stating what is

[DebraDownSouth]

Okay so here is the ultimate bottom line. It doesn't MATTER if they RETEST and show as affected. Your site CLAIMS that a dog that tests as IND WILL NOT DEVELOP FANCONI. You don't put one word of warning that this statement ASSumes the test was correct, that the dog COULD develop it and it COULD be retested to discover it really is a carrier or effected. That is my concern. It is not accurate to say just having the test means anything absolutely.

[Kipawa]

For those who have companion basenjis (like me), regardless of what results we get back, we will test strip Kipawa monthly. It is such a small thing to do (the time involved). However, for breeders, getting back 'funky' results must really be a pain. Not because you have to run around with pee sticks, but because the unexpected results would impact your breeding program.

[sharronhurlbut]

Fran, it just breaks my heart to hear about quality breeders who have received test results that aren't correct. Awful for them, the folks who have the dogs and the dogs themselves. I say a prayer for those I hear of who have had this happen.

[tanza]

@sharronhurlbut:

Fran, it just breaks my heart to hear about quality breeders who have received test results that aren't correct. Awful for them, the folks who have the dogs and the dogs themselves. I say a prayer for those I hear of who have had this happen.

While I am sure no one would wish that on anyone, we need to keep in mind that this is not a direct test, it is another tool for breeders to try and make responsible decisions.

I hope that at the Nationals were Dr. Johnson is due to speak that we will get more clear information about the test and results, along with news about the continued search for the direct gene test.

[Kebasmom]

Jagger's Mom is strip tested monthly just like my girl that is a carrier….. Two of the pups from this litter are prob clear and one is a prob carrier....

[DebraDownSouth]

Pat, that's so true. What upsets me is the need to continue testing is not NEW information. I applaud this web info, but all I can think is… why wasn't she strip testing? WHY WHY WHY?
http://batcavebasenjis.zoomshare.com/3.html

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Pat, that's so true. What upsets me is the need to continue testing is not NEW information. I applaud this web info, but all I can think is… why wasn't she strip testing? WHY WHY WHY?
http://batcavebasenjis.zoomshare.com/3.html

Because people were lead to believe that if Carrier or IND or even Clear for that matter, strip testing was not necessary. It IS new information, really….. many of us, me included, felt with the information given that it was not necessary. Lessons learned...with the passing of time.

[DebraDownSouth]

Pat, are you saying that the official information said to stop testing? I mean, I looked at it over a year ago, back when it asked that only people with breeding stock submit. I saw nothing saying to stop strip testing. So I guess I am asking if it was misinformation spread among owners or BCOA or who?, or if the testing folks actually SAID it was accurate and made testing unnecessary? If so, I am both shocked and sad because they had to realize it might take several years to be sure if the linkage was at all reliable and they certainly had to know lab mistakes could be made putting dogs in danger EVEN if it was a near perfect test if done correctly. Continued strip testing just seems so basically logical to me.

[tanza]

@DebraDownSouth:

Pat, are you saying that the official information said to stop testing? I mean, I looked at it over a year ago, back when it asked that only people with breeding stock submit. I saw nothing saying to stop strip testing. So I guess I am asking if it was misinformation spread among owners or BCOA or who?, or if the testing folks actually SAID it was accurate and made testing unnecessary? If so, I am both shocked and sad because they had to realize it might take several years to be sure if the linkage was at all reliable and they certainly had to know lab mistakes could be made putting dogs in danger EVEN if it was a near perfect test if done correctly. Continued strip testing just seems so basically logical to me.

That is not what I said, I said that many people and breeders "assumed" and not correctly that if you have a Carrier or IND you didn't need to test… and even for Clears, it was said that you didn't need to test. What may seem logical to many, obviously didn't related to the general public... People were not misinformed... only not impressed that continued strip testing was needed.

I will add that thankfully all of mine came back as Clear... so it never dawned on me to keep strip testing and the ones I had at home were all over 10+ yrs.... my pups that were out there may have been under that age, but again, all were tested clear... so it never occured to me to have them stripped. Thankfully for me they are still fine and healthy... so as I say, live and learn.

[DebraDownSouth]

Okay, well I feel better knowing it wasn't some official information. Arwen came back probable clear, btw. She is almost 9. I'll continue to strip test til they have a DNA test that is really reliable.

[Batcavebasenjis]

@DebraDownSouth:

Pat, that's so true. What upsets me is the need to continue testing is not NEW information. I applaud this web info, but all I can think is… why wasn't she strip testing? WHY WHY WHY?
http://batcavebasenjis.zoomshare.com/3.html

I didn't at first but as the years past, I like many people got comfortable with the results and not knowing of any errors gradually stopped.

Also Ace had a litter of pups, before the test came out, who were also tested, and all our results added up and seemed to be right. Now having re-tested them all, we found out that Ace and one of the pups were given the wrong results.

Jessica

[Batcavebasenjis]

@DebraDownSouth:

Okay, well I feel better knowing it wasn't some official information. Arwen came back probable clear, btw. She is almost 9. I'll continue to strip test til they have a DNA test that is really reliable.

A "reliable" test would not have done Ace or Diamond any good it was human error.

Jessica

[DebraDownSouth]

I think that is the point… not only is the test a marker test, but there seems to be quite a bit of errors. I would probably continue to strip test even if they developed a new test just because I am now so leery of messed up results.

[khanis]

@DebraDownSouth:

I think that is the point… not only is the test a marker test, but there seems to be quite a bit of errors. I would probably continue to strip test even if they developed a new test just because I am now so leery of messed up results.

I don't consider the number of errors that have occurred to be "quite a bit" when one considers how many were actually tested.
Unfortunately, when anything involves humans, there will always be the possibility of human error. That should be a given.

In the Spring of 2009, when we found out that "Funny" CH Khani's You Can Make History was spilling sugar, we were dumbfounded. I posted everywhere about her situation. She was tested again [this time a swab, as her original test was blood] and again, she tested as a carrier.
At that time, Jon told me that there was one other dog that was in this situation… tested more than once as a carrier, yet spilling sugar.
When Funny passed, a sample of her kidney was sent to UM for their research.
At that time, we found out the importance of testing dogs that could have tested as a carrier... meaning those that came from a breeding that could produce an affected... as in Funny... she was from a Carrier x Carrier breeding.

No matter the errors, this test is a god-send and I will take those errors with the good that has come of the test. The number of Fanconi Affecteds being produced by responsible breeders has dwindled to next to nothing.

Compared to the past... it isn't the same as playing Russian Roulette anymore.

[DebraDownSouth]

Kathy, I sure didn't mean to indicate it isn't a godsend or fantastic! Of course it is. I just meant… well as the Arabs say, Trust in G-d but tie your camel. Get the testing, use it to help guide breeding, retest if necessary, but keep doing the strip test. It's an easy if annoying process that protects your dog against testing errors or human errors.