Bonjour from Canada! Interested in conformation, bloodlines and genetics.
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@Sanda:
Here is a quick example in race horses. Secretariat was perhaps a better race horse than Northern Dancer but Northern Dancer's ability to pass on his genetic "greatness" (to keep the discussion simple), is well doccumented. So I am sure the same happens in dogs. I have found some studs who seamed to have had greater impacts than others. This is what I am trying to find out more about.
But here is the interesting thing about Secretariat, is that he prove his worth as a broodmare sire, something that Northern Dancer did not…. my personal opinion is that I would rather have a strong female line. Of course well documented to both leans heavily to unsoundness.
As far as conformation on Basenjis, I think that one of the biggest faults we are starting to see in conformation is a low tail set and little to no shelf. No shelf, with a to short second thigh and with straight shoulders, there is no good movement. Again, interesting is that with both of these faults, the dog can look like they are moving well enough since both the front and the rear have the same fault... but in closer evaluation, you see that it is certainly not correct. My personal taste is to a slightly longer back, especially in a bitch. I would rather have a little longer back then a little to short. Feet are becoming a problem I think in the breed, flat feet with very little arch and with a closer look, not very padded "pads" either.
Again, I don't have any stud that I would say "changed the world" as far as any of the things you mentioned. If you strictly want to talk "lines" and not specific dogs that would be more interesting, I think.
For example I think that the Reliant lines carried and passed on exceptional heads with lots of cushion (which I think is what you meant with rounded cheeks).
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Pat -
I went to a Helen King seminar a few months ago on structure. Really interesting. She doesn't have much use for a shelf in dogs, but did say question everything. So, my question is, what is the reason for a shelf in our breed?she does, however, like to see a larger hip/pelvis area. if you go to that link to her page and look at the red bc there - she really liked his structure - notice the pelvis, short loin.
eta: do most of the native basenjis have a pronounced shelf?
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If I look at my own dogs, the ones with no shelf, really had less the moderate angulation in the rear… .
meaning straighter in the rear or ???
sorry, here's the link with the red bc. he has, IMO, moderate angles and not so much shelf.
i think i gave a different link.
her seminars are worth going to. i wish i could find the link with pics of her poodles. her poo's are nekkid, so you can see everything. the poo's had lots of shelf. the ewe neck thing on her page is also interesting.
the question is, is the shelf functional or do we just like the look?
is it fair to look at wolves for comparison?
http://www.maxwaugh.com/zoo02/wolf2.html
here's a pic of a wolf "stacked" not much shelf.is the shelf related to a high tail set? i guess it would have to be. More shelf = higher tail set = more tilt to the pelvic bones?
just asking, trying to learn/think
thanks
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oh, and if someone not named pat wants to toss some ideas out, i'd love to hear them; pat was just the person who brought up the shelf (i think) and i know she's knowledgeable about the breed. i didn't mean to do a strictly private conversation.
thanks
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look at avongara buddy (lower rt pic)
http://www.hicotn.com/avongara.htmlwould you say this pup has "lots" of shelf?
http://www.afrikenji.com/leeloo.html
and no recent african? of course she's young in that pic. would that make the shelf more promenient?
do you think a basenji can have too much shelf? -
forgot to add:
to me, avongara buddy has not much shelf but a goodly amout of pelvis. the pelvis is important since that's where the muscles attach.here's more interesting stuff from helen king:
http://www.ippgazette.com/Issues/V3-4/ConformationStudy.htmi should dig up my notes. if only i were more organized
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ok, i'll sit on my hands for a bit now. i learn more that way. ;-)
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forgot to add:
to me, avongara buddy has not much shelf but a goodly amout of pelvis. the pelvis is important since that's where the muscles attach.here's more interesting stuff from helen king:
http://www.ippgazette.com/Issues/V3-4/ConformationStudy.htmi should dig up my notes. if only i were more organized
Interesting read. I haven't done any agility yet. Do you find limitations on your basenjis performance based on conformation? I've yet to see a clumsy basenji;)
As for shelf, I think the four poodles in the example show a nice variety. I think it's partly high tailset and partly the angle of the pelvis that create the "shelf." I find it very attractive, but haven't ever owned a dog with a particularly obvious shelf.
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That is interesting, Kim. I would be interested to know if the 'lack of shelf contributes to agility' is a commonly held theory, or a personal theory of the website owner?
I prefer a definitive shelf, because as Pat indicated, I think it leads to better movement; and I just prefer how it looks. And tail set is indicated by the angle of the pelvis. I prefer a high tail set; and high tail set is clearly indicated in the standard.
I have seen full Africans with good tail sets, and low tail sets…just like domestics.
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look at avongara buddy (lower rt pic)
http://www.hicotn.com/avongara.htmlwould you say this pup has "lots" of shelf?
http://www.afrikenji.com/leeloo.html
and no recent african? of course she's young in that pic. would that make the shelf more promenient?
do you think a basenji can have too much shelf?Avongara Buddy, IMO has very little shelf and a low tail set.
The pup in the picture has a very nice shelf with a very nice tail set…. and her shelf is about the same from the puppy picture to the later pictures at 2.5yrs. I have never seen a Basenji with too much shelf?
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okay, so what is the function of a shelf and a high tail set in our very natural breed?
I know what the breed standard says, so that's not an answer ;-) I'd like to know why this is. In looking at wild canids, i see neither a high tail set nor a prominent shelf but the most efficient, beautiful moving canid I've ever seen was a coyote that trotted accross my yard. And his (her?) jumping skill were amazing.
Could a high tail set be related to the domestication genes much like the white markings (Belyaev fox study)?
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Interesting read. I haven't done any agility yet. Do you find limitations on your basenjis performance based on conformation? I've yet to see a clumsy basenji;)
As for shelf, I think the four poodles in the example show a nice variety. I think it's partly high tailset and partly the angle of the pelvis that create the "shelf." I find it very attractive, but haven't ever owned a dog with a particularly obvious shelf.
i'm not sure i find limitations on my basenjis based on their conformations. (i'm on my 3rd competitive agility basenji) and certainly my oldest dogs (14 and 13 years) are still sound. the 13 year old has to have his back adjusted every so often, but the doc said it was probably due to an old injury. i asked b/c i was wondering if something in his structure caused it. my 14 year old is as sound as he's always been, but has lost some muscle mass in his thigh. he started to loose it shortly after he was neutered around age 10. BUT he's also a bit long in the loin, and has a shorter pelvis. Shorter pelvis means less area for the muscles to attach. So is this a contributing factor for muscle loss??? the 13 year old (still intact and more pelvis, i think) has good thigh muscles, but has never been as graceful a jumper. Both dogs still enjoy practicing a little agility when the weather is nice.
Of course my basenjis don't seem to turn very quickly on the agility courses. But is that training, motivation, structure??? a combo of those??? that's part of what i'm trying to figure out.
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If you have the years of the American Basenji, most of the early pictures of Basenjis had a moderate shelf, so I do not think it is domestication genes, but certainly breeding for the qualities one wants in their dog would lead to it being more prolific in the gene pool.
I believe that a moderate shelf is part of the entire hip structure leads to the second thigh. I know that my first boy, OJ has little to no shelf and was pretty straight in the rear, he could not turn at speed to save his life. I believe that the hip/shelf leads to a stronger drive from the rear.
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meaning straighter in the rear or ???
sorry, here's the link with the red bc. he has, IMO, moderate angles and not so much shelf.
i think i gave a different link.
her seminars are worth going to. i wish i could find the link with pics of her poodles. her poo's are nekkid, so you can see everything. the poo's had lots of shelf. the ewe neck thing on her page is also interesting.
the question is, is the shelf functional or do we just like the look?
is it fair to look at wolves for comparison?
http://www.maxwaugh.com/zoo02/wolf2.html
here's a pic of a wolf "stacked" not much shelf.is the shelf related to a high tail set? i guess it would have to be. More shelf = higher tail set = more tilt to the pelvic bones?
just asking, trying to learn/think
thanks
However these dogs (and wolf) in the pictures have a totally different structure then a Basenji. They are not square and their rears trend to slope down, obviously setting the tail in a different position. Here is the standard for the BC, Topline: "Back is level from behind the withers to the slightly arched, muscular loins, falling to a gently sloping croup". Goes on to say "The tail is set on low"
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In that the shelf does contribute to a nice high tail set, it appears the shelf is a good attribute for the basenji to have. When looking through the various pictures at the sites referred to, the basenjis with a good shelf look more elegant in comparison. Of course, I do not breed or show - just sayin.
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i'm not sure i find limitations on my basenjis based on their conformations. (i'm on my 3rd competitive agility basenji) and certainly my oldest dogs (14 and 13 years) are still sound. the 13 year old has to have his back adjusted every so often, but the doc said it was probably due to an old injury. i asked b/c i was wondering if something in his structure caused it. my 14 year old is as sound as he's always been, but has lost some muscle mass in his thigh. he started to loose it shortly after he was neutered around age 10. BUT he's also a bit long in the loin, and has a shorter pelvis. Shorter pelvis means less area for the muscles to attach. So is this a contributing factor for muscle loss??? the 13 year old (still intact and more pelvis, i think) has good thigh muscles, but has never been as graceful a jumper. Both dogs still enjoy practicing a little agility when the weather is nice.
Of course my basenjis don't seem to turn very quickly on the agility courses. But is that training, motivation, structure??? a combo of those??? that's part of what i'm trying to figure out.
It is well documented in horses and most performance animals that correct conformation is crucial to maintain soundness over time (crooked legs would wear out joints prematurely). Also important for performance itself, correct conformation leads to longer stride, speed and athletic ability. However, most basenjis are not expected to perform that much and over a long period of time.
I used to do endurance riding on horses and I had to have an expert eye for correct conformation. You HAD to have it to stay sound over time. But for a basenji, even if it does lure coursing often for example, usually the basenji would have time to heal anything perhaps prematurely worn a little, in between races.
So basenji owners have not had to worry about it as much as endurance riders for example. African tribesmen might have seen worn out parts back in the day, however they usually let nature take its course and only the toughest basenjis survived.
I am certain correct conformation would have a huge impact on soundness if you expected high strenuous performance of basenjis on a daily basis. But for now, many breeders are mostly motivated by the advantage of correct movement and the attractiveness of muscles in the show ring. Proper conformation and movement contributes to better results.
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Could you post a picture of a basenji with an obvious shelf and one without so I could see what you ladies are describing? I red everything and still I am not sure exactly what the shelf is. I know my dogs have high tail sets so i would like to find out how much shelf they have.
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Isn't the shelf the curvature of the rear? If you stack a B, you should definitely notice the shelf or lack thereof. I notice the shelf just by looking at Bs. Does the shelf have any thing to do with the tail set?
My Arnie has a decent tail set but has no shelf at all. I joke that one could turn him over and use his rear as a table as it is so straight! He should be used as a study for a B with no shelf. He is out of commercial breeding dogs.
Jennifer
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This link that was already post is a good example of a good shelf
