8 month old is biting…can't get him under control

[tangokor]

I used a laser pointer to keep my other B entertained occasionally and it did the trick. My ex also used to get on skates and take him around the block which really wore him out. I haven't tried this yet but maybe I should give that a whirl.

[thunderbird8588]

@tangokor:

and the trainers suggested basically that I just need to be more agressive w/ him and gave me a pinch collar to use.

Hi, that sentence rings alarm bells with me and i think you have been given the wrong advice totaly.
One of the best pieces of advice i was given when i had my first Basenji was remain calm and talk him down. It's very difficult to remain calm and in control of your emotions when the Dog is going over the top but the more whipped up you get the more the Basenji will react.
Our Pup is 6 1/2 months now and we have had some problems with her biteing in excitment, it's mostly gone now but we don't allow any rough house play involving teeth
If she nips then she is told No and play stops immediately. If she chases our legs we standstill and say leave it.
There have been occasions when we are out for a walk and she gets over excited and bites the lead or will leap for our legs.
They can be scary little dogs especialy for children as they seem to quickly become so excited, hopefuly with the advice given on the forum and a decent class you will be able to tame your little beast

[Schouiffy]

I agree with whats been state above, and I can't not express fervently enough that dominance training is NOT what should be used with a Basenji. This is a old school tactic that has lead to very aggressive dogs & biting habits. This form of dominance behavior with these type of dogs could endanger your children, as your dog doesn't know it's place or how to communicate with you properly out of fear of physical retribution.

Niping and biting are all apart of how your puppy experiences the world, dogs don't have hands so they sense and feel with their mouths. How was your bite inhibition training ? That should have started the moment the pup was brought home. When teething bites are too hard a high pitched "yelp" should be emitted and play time / all stimulation must end abruptly. This is what puppies do to each other within their litters, this is "dog" language. Your kids should practice this as well, it is only with consistency from all family members that your puppy will begin to change it's habits.

Also remember all dogs are not the same, just like people, so what worked for your other Basenji may not fit your puppy. I would grab "Other End of the Leash" by Patricia B McConnell for clues on working with your dog and not against it. Posture, eye contact, reactions, those all matter here. "The Puppy Primer" by her prob couldn't hurt either.

As all B parents say, a tired Basenji is a good Basenji. So more exercise for this dog is more than likely required. An hour outside is scraping the bare minimum, so if you can increase the walk times do. If not, try giving your puppy complicated tasks inside, kibble and peanut butter in a Kong toy (freeze it if your pup gets it out too fast) can entertain for a while, a good pizzle stick sometimes hours - Basenjis crave mental stimulation so games or puzzles (hiding food in objects for them to get out or agility training) are very helpful tools here.

Finally search the forums thoroughly for topics you have problems with because so many of us have experienced the same things, there are golden nuggets of advice all over the forum from many experienced breeders and owners who are extremely family and Basenji savvy.

Good luck

[sharronhurlbut]

Please, listen to these folks and stop all touching of this b which aren't positive.
If you continue on this path, you will have a dog who bites any human who puts their hands on him, because of this "awful training" advice.
Who is the breeder??? That will give us a clue to the lines this dog comes from and if there are behavior issues in that line.

[tangokor]

Lauren- Thank you so much!!! What you're saying makes so much sense! All of you have had great advice. Thanks for the book recommendations.

As far as the dominance goes I never in any way hurt him or make him fear me. He's quite comfortable in the positon in my arms belly up and will relax there for awhile. The floor excercises trainers have shown me are very brief, put him down and let him up after a couple of seconds. But I see that maybe that's not working.

As far as the bite inhibition I've read about it on here in other posts but never knew much about it before. What's difficult however is getting everyone in the family to do it and be on the same page. The kids react when mouthed by him but I haven't had them try the yelping yet.

The Trainer told me to try the Kong w/ peanut butter in it. So that's what I'm going to get him next to play with.

I think the problem is alot of the training advice I'm getting at home is from those who own dogs like Golden Retrievers and these things work for them but aren't what is going to work with a Basenji. The one dog trainer said the last Basenji they had in class didn't last long. We're going to start the second class soon, and/ or Aglility. So hopefully that will help keep him busy.

Thanks!
Heather

[lvoss]

If you are taking your second set of classes from the same instructors that told you their last basenji student didn't complete training with them then you should consider finding a new trainer. I would recommend finding a trainer that is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT).

You can search their site for trainers local to you.

http://www.ccpdt.org/index.php?option=com_mtree&Itemid=16

[listeme]

Yeah, golden retrievers are not the same

A couple things I've learned along the way (our Simon is six months old yesterday): distracting with a positive command and a treat works OFTEN. If he starts revving, waving and saying no* really does nothing. What helps is sort of breaking the cycle with fun. (Yeah, basenjis can figure out that they can start fun with behavior, but whatever. He's a good boy.) So a quick session of sitting and down and touching our palms can focus him and THEN we give him something special like a kong and all is well.

Another is three strikes. We are finding that sometimes he is just overtired and/or overstimulated, and so a quick pop in the crate for some breathing space for everyone can work wonders. Three strikes supposedly is 1 minute, 5 minutes, full nap – if the first minute isn't enough to unrev him, 5 minutes might be, and if not, let him just chill for a full nap. I would prefer another name for this method, because I think it SOUNDS like punishment, but it's totally not that kind of method. It's a problem-solving method.

And walk the heck out of him. The heat is ridiculous right now, and that is a huge challenge for us. I'm not exactly an early riser But if I oversleep and miss that good walk time before it's hot, Simon's day is not as fun -- and neither is mine.

If I ever wrote training advice, I would start with "don't teach the word no until you have at least 10 actual commands to try, and if you still think you need the word no, then teach a few more." I drove my adult kids nuts because I kept telling them "he doesn't know the word no". I prefer giving a dog something to DO rather than trying to teach him not to do*.

**Quit is different.

[MacPack]

Old fashioned training methods led to the "untrainable" reputation that basenjis had for so long. Positive training leads to therapy dogs, obedience and agility champions, and happy pets.

And along with all the great advice (The Other End of the Leash is excellent), remember that he is a full fledged teenager at this age, starting to rebel and push his boundaries. Even a great, well behaved basenji can become a handful at this age.

I know you have a full life, but an hour invested a couple of times a day to walk or skate with him to tire him out may give you more rest later in the day, when he's sleeping. Trying to raise a couple of active kids and a basenji pup is not an easy job. Good luck!

[starrlamia]

The only time that dogs roll other dogs over onto their belly is to kill them.
The alpha roll is completely outdated and has been scientifically disproven.
Dogs willingly roll onto their back into submission they are never forced.
Our dog was very bad for biting when he was a pup and the only method that worked for us was completely removing any attention from the pup and when he was calm initiate play in a way you want. such as with a toy.

[Quercus]

@listeme:

Yeah, golden retrievers are not the same

A couple things I've learned along the way (our Simon is six months old yesterday): distracting with a positive command and a treat works OFTEN. If he starts revving, waving and saying no* really does nothing. What helps is sort of breaking the cycle with fun. (Yeah, basenjis can figure out that they can start fun with behavior, but whatever. He's a good boy.) So a quick session of sitting and down and touching our palms can focus him and THEN we give him something special like a kong and all is well.

Another is three strikes. We are finding that sometimes he is just overtired and/or overstimulated, and so a quick pop in the crate for some breathing space for everyone can work wonders. Three strikes supposedly is 1 minute, 5 minutes, full nap – if the first minute isn't enough to unrev him, 5 minutes might be, and if not, let him just chill for a full nap. I would prefer another name for this method, because I think it SOUNDS like punishment, but it's totally not that kind of method. It's a problem-solving method.

And walk the heck out of him. The heat is ridiculous right now, and that is a huge challenge for us. I'm not exactly an early riser But if I oversleep and miss that good walk time before it's hot, Simon's day is not as fun -- and neither is mine.

If I ever wrote training advice, I would start with "don't teach the word no until you have at least 10 actual commands to try, and if you still think you need the word no, then teach a few more." I drove my adult kids nuts because I kept telling them "he doesn't know the word no". I prefer giving a dog something to DO rather than trying to teach him not to do*.

**Quit is different.

This is great advice A lot of times, that crazy puppy behavior is overstimulation, and if you do a time out in the crate they will take a nap.

[annimon]

@Quercus:

Just a quick note on this topic, because there is a ton of info on play biting back thru time here. But giving a puppy a chew toy because he is biting you just isn't going to work. The dog is nipping you because that is the only way he knows how to invite you (and the kids) to play. Anytime you push, squeeze, jab, grab, etc. in reaction to play biting it just makes the dog want to play harder. The puppy wants interaction, and needs to learn an appropriate way to ask for it. Try doing a short, fun training session when the puppy gets in a crazy mood. Or get a laser pointer, and have him chase that for 10 minutes or so (good for the kids to do, because they are stationary, yet playing with the dog, and wearing his energy off). Play biting always improves with age, but it can become an attention getting habit if you let it.

Sounds like good sense, we're having this too with 7 month old tri Leo. distraction and getting rid of the energy works for play biting. We're now having a problem with territorial possesiveness. Growling and meaningful biting while on the bed or sofa. We are using the hold down for this, but after the verbal warning and the neck touch. This has nothing to do with play and everything to do with dominance. He's taken off the throne of his little kingdom, but gets striaght back up and does it again. We all know the behaviour, but it is really awful when done in front of strangers who advise me that it is a serious problem and the dog is vicious. I see it as Basenji behaviour that I have to find a way to straighten out

[annimon]

@sharronhurlbut:

Please, listen to these folks and stop all touching of this b which aren't positive.
If you continue on this path, you will have a dog who bites any human who puts their hands on him, because of this "awful training" advice.
Who is the breeder??? That will give us a clue to the lines this dog comes from and if there are behavior issues in that line.

i live in the UK and want to make a donation to the BRAT in the US. thankfully the UK Brat has no rescue dogs at the moment and hasn't for some time. If you can let me know how I can do that I'd be grateful

[annimon]

@tangokor:

Lauren- Thank you so much!!! What you're saying makes so much sense! All of you have had great advice. Thanks for the book recommendations.

As far as the dominance goes I never in any way hurt him or make him fear me. He's quite comfortable in the positon in my arms belly up and will relax there for awhile. The floor excercises trainers have shown me are very brief, put him down and let him up after a couple of seconds. But I see that maybe that's not working.

As far as the bite inhibition I've read about it on here in other posts but never knew much about it before. What's difficult however is getting everyone in the family to do it and be on the same page. The kids react when mouthed by him but I haven't had them try the yelping yet.

The Trainer told me to try the Kong w/ peanut butter in it. So that's what I'm going to get him next to play with.

I think the problem is alot of the training advice I'm getting at home is from those who own dogs like Golden Retrievers and these things work for them but aren't what is going to work with a Basenji. The one dog trainer said the last Basenji they had in class didn't last long. We're going to start the second class soon, and/ or Aglility. So hopefully that will help keep him busy.

Thanks!
Heather

I think the idea of holding a dog in the submissive position, a dog that is biting in an agressive manner not a play manner, is not about terrifying it, but waiting for it to relax. If I have to hold my biting, growling Basenji down I do so quietly, gently and stroke him until his mood passes when he is then allowed to return to normal behaviour. He does relax. I have to find a way to let him know that his behaviour is unacceptable without resorting to aggression myself. In this instance I find this useful, but I do believe that your Basenji is being playful and sees your children as other pups he's inviting to play. I don't think the two states should be confused. Exercise, playtime and ' I've used a clicker (any sound will do) to distract.

[annimon]

@starrlamia:

The only time that dogs roll other dogs over onto their belly is to kill them.
The alpha roll is completely outdated and has been scientifically disproven.
Dogs willingly roll onto their back into submission they are never forced.
Our dog was very bad for biting when he was a pup and the only method that worked for us was completely removing any attention from the pup and when he was calm initiate play in a way you want. such as with a toy.

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

[JayCee]

@annimon:

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

Withdrawing attention from a misbehaving dog DOES NOT create separation anxiety. It is also not a 'punishment' if done sensibly the dog realises that 'if I behave in that way playtime stops, therefore its in my best interests NOT to behave in that way. No trauma, no anxiety. There might be some frustration as the dog tries to persuade you to continue the game, especially if this method has not been used from day 1. But once they work it out its like magic…. If I take a toy away I get an instant sit or down and a 'please can we continue' look

Yes puppies will roll over and pin each... but its turn and turn about - and its PLAY. I do not want my Basenji or any of my dogs to think I am another Basenji or dog, hence I do not try to mimic dog language.

Teaching a dog to be restrained in any position and it is not frightening but is a pleasant experience is a good life skill to teach any dog (eg visits to the vet/grooming) it has nothing to do proving your dominance.

I would just like to add that +ve reinforcement training works better than harsh methods on all dogs. I feel so sorry for the other breeds who have been bred for generations to work for man, and have had the inclination to protest bred out of them as they will continue to be abused by this harsh methods long after Basenji's.

Whatever technique you are recommended to try would you want it used on you / your children? If you can answer unequivocal 'yes' then if probably fine to use it. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slamming a toddler to the ground if it didn't come to you in the garden then don't use an 'alpha roll' on your dog. Use a pinch collar on your dog if you would use it on a toddler that when being held by the hand kept tugging yo to get to the children's playground to stop this in the future...

[NerdyDogOwner]

I have to agree with annimon. starrlamias statement is wrong.

Dogs roll on their back during play and to show submission. If a dog wants to kill, it will go for the kill head on, never trying to get the dog on his back….that's just a waste of energy.

However, if there is a disagreement or lack of respect, the dog will put him/her down on it's back to show his/her dominance. This usually happens with very little actual biting/attacking, it just looks more violent than it is.

At the dog-park I see rolling on the back all over the place, and it's 100% safe and during play. Some will even enter the park and instantly fall on it's back as the others approach him/her, to show they mean no harm and view the others as alpha.

As for that "create seperation anxiety" bit, that part I disagree with annimon.

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

I have to agree with annimon. starrlamias statement is wrong.

Dogs roll on their back during play and to show submission. If a dog wants to kill, it will go for the kill head on, never trying to get the dog on his back….that's just a waste of energy.

However, if there is a disagreement or lack of respect, the dog will put him/her down on it's back to show his/her dominance. This usually happens with very little actual biting/attacking, it just looks more violent than it is.

At the dog-park I see rolling on the back all over the place, and it's 100% safe and during play. Some will even enter the park and instantly fall on it's back as the others approach him/her, to show they mean no harm and view the others as alpha.

As for that "create seperation anxiety" bit, that part I disagree with annimon.

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

[annimon]

@JayCee:

Withdrawing attention from a misbehaving dog DOES NOT create separation anxiety. It is also not a 'punishment' if done sensibly the dog realises that 'if I behave in that way playtime stops, therefore its in my best interests NOT to behave in that way. No trauma, no anxiety. There might be some frustration as the dog tries to persuade you to continue the game, especially if this method has not been used from day 1. But once they work it out its like magic…. If I take a toy away I get an instant sit or down and a 'please can we continue' look

Yes puppies will roll over and pin each... but its turn and turn about - and its PLAY. I do not want my Basenji or any of my dogs to think I am another Basenji or dog, hence I do not try to mimic dog language.

Teaching a dog to be restrained in any position and it is not frightening but is a pleasant experience is a good life skill to teach any dog (eg visits to the vet/grooming) it has nothing to do proving your dominance.

I would just like to add that +ve reinforcement training works better than harsh methods on all dogs. I feel so sorry for the other breeds who have been bred for generations to work for man, and have had the inclination to protest bred out of them as they will continue to be abused by this harsh methods long after Basenji's.

Whatever technique you are recommended to try would you want it used on you / your children? If you can answer unequivocal 'yes' then if probably fine to use it. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slamming a toddler to the ground if it didn't come to you in the garden then don't use an 'alpha roll' on your dog. Use a pinch collar on your dog if you would use it on a toddler that when being held by the hand kept tugging yo to get to the children's playground to stop this in the future...

I was just responding to the bit about dogs only roll others when they are going to kill and that I didn't think it was true. I shouldn't like a new owner, seeing playing rolling as the beginning of a kill. I always hold my dog on his side, not his back. I certainly don't slam my dogs down and didn't say that.
I've held my temper trantum kids on my lap until the anger passes and it's worked for me. My children couldn't copntrol their own anger when they were young and neither can a puppy. The difference being that my children have many years to learn and my puppy could end up euthenised if he displays this angry agression outside the home.I haven't had to negotitate, threaten or isolate to get results with my humans. I've never used a pinch collar on a dog and never will. He walks in a harness, so not even a collar pull. The only devices I use are my hands in a non agressive way. Perhaps restrain would be a better word. As for a puppy not wanting to see me as another dog, well that just might be the only way he can view me on such new aquaintence. I don't believe puppies understand the subtleness of different creatures but who is in charge and who he can be in charge of
As I said I didn't wish to be conflicting, but only that first statement made me react and respond. Of course discipline and reinforcement work together. Best wishes

[JayCee]

@annimon:

I was just responding to the bit about dogs only roll others when they are going to kill and that I didn't think it was true. I shouldn't like a new owner, seeing playing rolling as the beginning of a kill. I always hold my dog on his side, not his back. I certainly don't slam my dogs down and didn't say that.
I've held my temper trantum kids on my lap until the anger passes and it's worked for me. My children couldn't copntrol their own anger when they were young and neither can a puppy. The difference being that my children have many years to learn and my puppy could end up euthenised if he displays this angry agression outside the home.I haven't had to negotitate, threaten or isolate to get results with my humans. I've never used a pinch collar on a dog and never will. He walks in a harness, so not even a collar pull. The only devices I use are my hands in a non agressive way. Perhaps restrain would be a better word. As for a puppy not wanting to see me as another dog, well that just might be the only way he can view me on such new aquaintence. I don't believe puppies understand the subtleness of different creatures but who is in charge and who he can be in charge of
As I said I didn't wish to be conflicting, but only that first statement made me react and respond. Of course discipline and reinforcement work together. Best wishes

Please do not think I was attacking you - I am sorry if it came across as that. I was collecting several bits from different posts and responding to them in my post.

[annimon]

@JayCee:

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

Well of course that's not going to happen. The lying down is for aggression not for training. We can't teach a pup to fetch a ball by holding him down if he won't go for it. I haven't got my point across very well. I would only ever require submission from a growling, aggressive, fearful dog and I have had these in the past as rescue animals. I would rather stop the behaviour in it's tracks in this manner. you can't withdraw attention on a walk so what would you do, given that this behavour hasn't happened before in the home? what wopuld you do if your dog had another dog in it's mouth with the intention to kill.