8 month old is biting…can't get him under control

[listeme]

Yeah, golden retrievers are not the same

A couple things I've learned along the way (our Simon is six months old yesterday): distracting with a positive command and a treat works OFTEN. If he starts revving, waving and saying no* really does nothing. What helps is sort of breaking the cycle with fun. (Yeah, basenjis can figure out that they can start fun with behavior, but whatever. He's a good boy.) So a quick session of sitting and down and touching our palms can focus him and THEN we give him something special like a kong and all is well.

Another is three strikes. We are finding that sometimes he is just overtired and/or overstimulated, and so a quick pop in the crate for some breathing space for everyone can work wonders. Three strikes supposedly is 1 minute, 5 minutes, full nap – if the first minute isn't enough to unrev him, 5 minutes might be, and if not, let him just chill for a full nap. I would prefer another name for this method, because I think it SOUNDS like punishment, but it's totally not that kind of method. It's a problem-solving method.

And walk the heck out of him. The heat is ridiculous right now, and that is a huge challenge for us. I'm not exactly an early riser But if I oversleep and miss that good walk time before it's hot, Simon's day is not as fun -- and neither is mine.

If I ever wrote training advice, I would start with "don't teach the word no until you have at least 10 actual commands to try, and if you still think you need the word no, then teach a few more." I drove my adult kids nuts because I kept telling them "he doesn't know the word no". I prefer giving a dog something to DO rather than trying to teach him not to do*.

**Quit is different.

[MacPack]

Old fashioned training methods led to the "untrainable" reputation that basenjis had for so long. Positive training leads to therapy dogs, obedience and agility champions, and happy pets.

And along with all the great advice (The Other End of the Leash is excellent), remember that he is a full fledged teenager at this age, starting to rebel and push his boundaries. Even a great, well behaved basenji can become a handful at this age.

I know you have a full life, but an hour invested a couple of times a day to walk or skate with him to tire him out may give you more rest later in the day, when he's sleeping. Trying to raise a couple of active kids and a basenji pup is not an easy job. Good luck!

[starrlamia]

The only time that dogs roll other dogs over onto their belly is to kill them.
The alpha roll is completely outdated and has been scientifically disproven.
Dogs willingly roll onto their back into submission they are never forced.
Our dog was very bad for biting when he was a pup and the only method that worked for us was completely removing any attention from the pup and when he was calm initiate play in a way you want. such as with a toy.

[Quercus]

@listeme:

Yeah, golden retrievers are not the same

A couple things I've learned along the way (our Simon is six months old yesterday): distracting with a positive command and a treat works OFTEN. If he starts revving, waving and saying no* really does nothing. What helps is sort of breaking the cycle with fun. (Yeah, basenjis can figure out that they can start fun with behavior, but whatever. He's a good boy.) So a quick session of sitting and down and touching our palms can focus him and THEN we give him something special like a kong and all is well.

Another is three strikes. We are finding that sometimes he is just overtired and/or overstimulated, and so a quick pop in the crate for some breathing space for everyone can work wonders. Three strikes supposedly is 1 minute, 5 minutes, full nap – if the first minute isn't enough to unrev him, 5 minutes might be, and if not, let him just chill for a full nap. I would prefer another name for this method, because I think it SOUNDS like punishment, but it's totally not that kind of method. It's a problem-solving method.

And walk the heck out of him. The heat is ridiculous right now, and that is a huge challenge for us. I'm not exactly an early riser But if I oversleep and miss that good walk time before it's hot, Simon's day is not as fun -- and neither is mine.

If I ever wrote training advice, I would start with "don't teach the word no until you have at least 10 actual commands to try, and if you still think you need the word no, then teach a few more." I drove my adult kids nuts because I kept telling them "he doesn't know the word no". I prefer giving a dog something to DO rather than trying to teach him not to do*.

**Quit is different.

This is great advice A lot of times, that crazy puppy behavior is overstimulation, and if you do a time out in the crate they will take a nap.

[annimon]

@Quercus:

Just a quick note on this topic, because there is a ton of info on play biting back thru time here. But giving a puppy a chew toy because he is biting you just isn't going to work. The dog is nipping you because that is the only way he knows how to invite you (and the kids) to play. Anytime you push, squeeze, jab, grab, etc. in reaction to play biting it just makes the dog want to play harder. The puppy wants interaction, and needs to learn an appropriate way to ask for it. Try doing a short, fun training session when the puppy gets in a crazy mood. Or get a laser pointer, and have him chase that for 10 minutes or so (good for the kids to do, because they are stationary, yet playing with the dog, and wearing his energy off). Play biting always improves with age, but it can become an attention getting habit if you let it.

Sounds like good sense, we're having this too with 7 month old tri Leo. distraction and getting rid of the energy works for play biting. We're now having a problem with territorial possesiveness. Growling and meaningful biting while on the bed or sofa. We are using the hold down for this, but after the verbal warning and the neck touch. This has nothing to do with play and everything to do with dominance. He's taken off the throne of his little kingdom, but gets striaght back up and does it again. We all know the behaviour, but it is really awful when done in front of strangers who advise me that it is a serious problem and the dog is vicious. I see it as Basenji behaviour that I have to find a way to straighten out

[annimon]

@sharronhurlbut:

Please, listen to these folks and stop all touching of this b which aren't positive.
If you continue on this path, you will have a dog who bites any human who puts their hands on him, because of this "awful training" advice.
Who is the breeder??? That will give us a clue to the lines this dog comes from and if there are behavior issues in that line.

i live in the UK and want to make a donation to the BRAT in the US. thankfully the UK Brat has no rescue dogs at the moment and hasn't for some time. If you can let me know how I can do that I'd be grateful

[annimon]

@tangokor:

Lauren- Thank you so much!!! What you're saying makes so much sense! All of you have had great advice. Thanks for the book recommendations.

As far as the dominance goes I never in any way hurt him or make him fear me. He's quite comfortable in the positon in my arms belly up and will relax there for awhile. The floor excercises trainers have shown me are very brief, put him down and let him up after a couple of seconds. But I see that maybe that's not working.

As far as the bite inhibition I've read about it on here in other posts but never knew much about it before. What's difficult however is getting everyone in the family to do it and be on the same page. The kids react when mouthed by him but I haven't had them try the yelping yet.

The Trainer told me to try the Kong w/ peanut butter in it. So that's what I'm going to get him next to play with.

I think the problem is alot of the training advice I'm getting at home is from those who own dogs like Golden Retrievers and these things work for them but aren't what is going to work with a Basenji. The one dog trainer said the last Basenji they had in class didn't last long. We're going to start the second class soon, and/ or Aglility. So hopefully that will help keep him busy.

Thanks!
Heather

I think the idea of holding a dog in the submissive position, a dog that is biting in an agressive manner not a play manner, is not about terrifying it, but waiting for it to relax. If I have to hold my biting, growling Basenji down I do so quietly, gently and stroke him until his mood passes when he is then allowed to return to normal behaviour. He does relax. I have to find a way to let him know that his behaviour is unacceptable without resorting to aggression myself. In this instance I find this useful, but I do believe that your Basenji is being playful and sees your children as other pups he's inviting to play. I don't think the two states should be confused. Exercise, playtime and ' I've used a clicker (any sound will do) to distract.

[annimon]

@starrlamia:

The only time that dogs roll other dogs over onto their belly is to kill them.
The alpha roll is completely outdated and has been scientifically disproven.
Dogs willingly roll onto their back into submission they are never forced.
Our dog was very bad for biting when he was a pup and the only method that worked for us was completely removing any attention from the pup and when he was calm initiate play in a way you want. such as with a toy.

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

[JayCee]

@annimon:

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

Withdrawing attention from a misbehaving dog DOES NOT create separation anxiety. It is also not a 'punishment' if done sensibly the dog realises that 'if I behave in that way playtime stops, therefore its in my best interests NOT to behave in that way. No trauma, no anxiety. There might be some frustration as the dog tries to persuade you to continue the game, especially if this method has not been used from day 1. But once they work it out its like magic…. If I take a toy away I get an instant sit or down and a 'please can we continue' look

Yes puppies will roll over and pin each... but its turn and turn about - and its PLAY. I do not want my Basenji or any of my dogs to think I am another Basenji or dog, hence I do not try to mimic dog language.

Teaching a dog to be restrained in any position and it is not frightening but is a pleasant experience is a good life skill to teach any dog (eg visits to the vet/grooming) it has nothing to do proving your dominance.

I would just like to add that +ve reinforcement training works better than harsh methods on all dogs. I feel so sorry for the other breeds who have been bred for generations to work for man, and have had the inclination to protest bred out of them as they will continue to be abused by this harsh methods long after Basenji's.

Whatever technique you are recommended to try would you want it used on you / your children? If you can answer unequivocal 'yes' then if probably fine to use it. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slamming a toddler to the ground if it didn't come to you in the garden then don't use an 'alpha roll' on your dog. Use a pinch collar on your dog if you would use it on a toddler that when being held by the hand kept tugging yo to get to the children's playground to stop this in the future...

[NerdyDogOwner]

I have to agree with annimon. starrlamias statement is wrong.

Dogs roll on their back during play and to show submission. If a dog wants to kill, it will go for the kill head on, never trying to get the dog on his back….that's just a waste of energy.

However, if there is a disagreement or lack of respect, the dog will put him/her down on it's back to show his/her dominance. This usually happens with very little actual biting/attacking, it just looks more violent than it is.

At the dog-park I see rolling on the back all over the place, and it's 100% safe and during play. Some will even enter the park and instantly fall on it's back as the others approach him/her, to show they mean no harm and view the others as alpha.

As for that "create seperation anxiety" bit, that part I disagree with annimon.

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

I have to agree with annimon. starrlamias statement is wrong.

Dogs roll on their back during play and to show submission. If a dog wants to kill, it will go for the kill head on, never trying to get the dog on his back….that's just a waste of energy.

However, if there is a disagreement or lack of respect, the dog will put him/her down on it's back to show his/her dominance. This usually happens with very little actual biting/attacking, it just looks more violent than it is.

At the dog-park I see rolling on the back all over the place, and it's 100% safe and during play. Some will even enter the park and instantly fall on it's back as the others approach him/her, to show they mean no harm and view the others as alpha.

As for that "create seperation anxiety" bit, that part I disagree with annimon.

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

[annimon]

@JayCee:

Withdrawing attention from a misbehaving dog DOES NOT create separation anxiety. It is also not a 'punishment' if done sensibly the dog realises that 'if I behave in that way playtime stops, therefore its in my best interests NOT to behave in that way. No trauma, no anxiety. There might be some frustration as the dog tries to persuade you to continue the game, especially if this method has not been used from day 1. But once they work it out its like magic…. If I take a toy away I get an instant sit or down and a 'please can we continue' look

Yes puppies will roll over and pin each... but its turn and turn about - and its PLAY. I do not want my Basenji or any of my dogs to think I am another Basenji or dog, hence I do not try to mimic dog language.

Teaching a dog to be restrained in any position and it is not frightening but is a pleasant experience is a good life skill to teach any dog (eg visits to the vet/grooming) it has nothing to do proving your dominance.

I would just like to add that +ve reinforcement training works better than harsh methods on all dogs. I feel so sorry for the other breeds who have been bred for generations to work for man, and have had the inclination to protest bred out of them as they will continue to be abused by this harsh methods long after Basenji's.

Whatever technique you are recommended to try would you want it used on you / your children? If you can answer unequivocal 'yes' then if probably fine to use it. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slamming a toddler to the ground if it didn't come to you in the garden then don't use an 'alpha roll' on your dog. Use a pinch collar on your dog if you would use it on a toddler that when being held by the hand kept tugging yo to get to the children's playground to stop this in the future...

I was just responding to the bit about dogs only roll others when they are going to kill and that I didn't think it was true. I shouldn't like a new owner, seeing playing rolling as the beginning of a kill. I always hold my dog on his side, not his back. I certainly don't slam my dogs down and didn't say that.
I've held my temper trantum kids on my lap until the anger passes and it's worked for me. My children couldn't copntrol their own anger when they were young and neither can a puppy. The difference being that my children have many years to learn and my puppy could end up euthenised if he displays this angry agression outside the home.I haven't had to negotitate, threaten or isolate to get results with my humans. I've never used a pinch collar on a dog and never will. He walks in a harness, so not even a collar pull. The only devices I use are my hands in a non agressive way. Perhaps restrain would be a better word. As for a puppy not wanting to see me as another dog, well that just might be the only way he can view me on such new aquaintence. I don't believe puppies understand the subtleness of different creatures but who is in charge and who he can be in charge of
As I said I didn't wish to be conflicting, but only that first statement made me react and respond. Of course discipline and reinforcement work together. Best wishes

[JayCee]

@annimon:

I was just responding to the bit about dogs only roll others when they are going to kill and that I didn't think it was true. I shouldn't like a new owner, seeing playing rolling as the beginning of a kill. I always hold my dog on his side, not his back. I certainly don't slam my dogs down and didn't say that.
I've held my temper trantum kids on my lap until the anger passes and it's worked for me. My children couldn't copntrol their own anger when they were young and neither can a puppy. The difference being that my children have many years to learn and my puppy could end up euthenised if he displays this angry agression outside the home.I haven't had to negotitate, threaten or isolate to get results with my humans. I've never used a pinch collar on a dog and never will. He walks in a harness, so not even a collar pull. The only devices I use are my hands in a non agressive way. Perhaps restrain would be a better word. As for a puppy not wanting to see me as another dog, well that just might be the only way he can view me on such new aquaintence. I don't believe puppies understand the subtleness of different creatures but who is in charge and who he can be in charge of
As I said I didn't wish to be conflicting, but only that first statement made me react and respond. Of course discipline and reinforcement work together. Best wishes

Please do not think I was attacking you - I am sorry if it came across as that. I was collecting several bits from different posts and responding to them in my post.

[annimon]

@JayCee:

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

Well of course that's not going to happen. The lying down is for aggression not for training. We can't teach a pup to fetch a ball by holding him down if he won't go for it. I haven't got my point across very well. I would only ever require submission from a growling, aggressive, fearful dog and I have had these in the past as rescue animals. I would rather stop the behaviour in it's tracks in this manner. you can't withdraw attention on a walk so what would you do, given that this behavour hasn't happened before in the home? what wopuld you do if your dog had another dog in it's mouth with the intention to kill.

[annimon]

Please do not think I was attacking you - I am sorry if it came across as that. I was collecting several bits from different posts and responding to them in my post.

That's fine, we're here to discuss and learn from each other. I have a problem with aggression on the bed and sofa..nowhere else and I'm looking for help with that. lots of things tried without any change.

[JayCee]

I'm sorry you having aggression issues on the bed and sofa. Have you read Jean Donaldon's 'Mine' which is all about resource guarding? My short answer would be, that if your dog cannot behave politely when given treat/toy/privilege its removed. Therefore no access to the bed or sofa.

I start all my animals off with limited access to the house, using puppy pens/ crates and as they learn the household rules I gradually increase their free access to areas of the house and if invited to human furniture. If they abuse the privilege their access is removed immediately. As I have cats and have had various hunting hounds living me from pups, fosters and rescues this is essential for their safety - but the cats have to abide by the rules too! I am lucky in that I generally live by myself so it is a very consistent environment that is provided for the animals.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@JayCee:

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

But in the same way as when I go into a park/ room full of strange people I don't start by saying 'Please don't hit me, I don't want a fight' , I say 'Hello' and expect the same in return. Which is the same with well socialised normal dogs. Therefore I will not go to, or stay in, an area where there is a lot of dogs exhibiting their bellies/ dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures. If there is a lot of butt sniffing, play bows, play fights great, but not the other.

I have exercised my dogs on and off leash in public places all their lives - but I choose those places with care, and I think I have social well balanced animals who fortunately have never been involved in any dog fights be they victim or aggressor. Sadly many people cannot read their dogs, nor have enough control should things start going awry so I personally feel prevention is better than a dog fight.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@JayCee:

But in the same way as when I go into a park/ room full of strange people I don't start by saying 'Please don't hit me, I don't want a fight' , I say 'Hello' and expect the same in return. Which is the same with well socialised normal dogs. Therefore I will not go to, or stay in, an area where there is a lot of dogs exhibiting their bellies/ dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures. If there is a lot of butt sniffing, play bows, play fights great, but not the other.

Eh..okay, but dogs have a different language than humans….you do know that right?

You might not be aware of it, but when YOU (human) enter a room with strangers, you actually do give off a body language depending on your personality. Aggressive, confident, submissive...etc.
You might be a confident person, and go right in and say "Hello". Others will stand off to the side by themselves. Some will gradually move closer etc. Does not mean one way is (as you put it) the "normal" way.

Dogs have different personality's too. Some are insecure and will roll on their backs instantly, others will run in with confidence and start playing.

It's a shame you see rolling on the back as a bad sign. Something it most definitely is not.

I highly suggest getting the The Language of Dogs DVD.

But I understand some people are very protective. Dog fights are also a part of learning, and is also an important part of their growth in understanding behavior limits. I am not saying you should throw your dog into a fight, but avoiding other dogs just in fear of it happening is not helping a dogs social development.

[thunderbird8588]

tangokor, just a word of warning if you get your children to yelp or yelp yourself.
I did this with Malaika and found it whipped her up even more, i could see the excitement in her eyes and she leapt at me. I think the yelp i used was too high pitched maybe like an injured animal and it had the opposite effect to what i was aiming for. So what i'm saying is experiment with pitches.