Wow! this is one of many, many threads that I have responded to and I am very interested in the outcome of Poopydog and the nipping. As I was going through the Thread, I really had to bypass any of the responses of those who enjoy attacking one another. I sure hope this behavior did not thwart our member who really needed help. The majority are replies to one another trying to impart important knowledge or experience to someone who did not ask for it in the first place. Don't try to sound important. Everyone is, just give happy good-hearted advice and let us just not dig into the other who has a different opinion. Just dig, digs, and more digs. Really getting old….........................I know you won't miss me, but this is just too much.................................................................
Otis just nipped my son…
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I don't know if it is the breeders fault, maybe I got him too late, meaning if he was brought into a home environment before 17 weeks he would've been socialized better, maybe not, no one can really tell.
Maybe I brought it out in him because I feed raw, some people argue that angle as well (not on this forum but other on other ones), or maybe he just needs to know his place..either way, we are working on it and if all else fail..we do what every body else seems to do..dump him and get a new and improved one….
I so hope y'all understand my sarcasm here..we are never upgrading our pets, we work with what we have and love them for who they are..I am happy to hear that you have a new baby onboard, congrats. What color is he? Do you have any pictures of the three loving life together?
I don't know if you need to blame yourself for having brought it out in him Petra. He may just be that way and needs work. Dogs all have their different personalities like people. I rescued Buddy at approx 7 months old and he may have come from a BYB as he still has his dew claws. Who knows where he came from as he was wondering the streets of Highland,CA. So after a year he shows no sign of resource guarding as I have just reached and pulled bones from him with no reaction other than a blank stare and he's never growled at any other dogs. Just my 2 cents.
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Petra…you can't blame yourself - many people have had the same issues with their dogs. You see you have a problem with Otis, you've admitted it now and you are seeking out help - and no doubt you'll follow thru with the training the behaviorist advises. It is all a learning process - don't beat yourself up, what good will that do anyway.
Good luck and keep us posted how he progresses.
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Petra, I just want to say, I think you are doing the right thing. You noticed a problem and you are getting help now before it escalates any further. The reason Otis has the problem really isn't nearly as important as the fact that you are doing all the right things to help work through that problem. Don't beat yourself up about it, just keep working with him.
Rita Jean, just because two dogs can eat out of the same bowl without fighting does not mean that either dog does not or cannot have an issue with resource gaurding. The item has to be of high enough value in the dog's mind to be worth gaurding. Food just may not be that valuable that warrants risking personal injury for that dog. The thing that catches most owners off gaurd about resource gaurding is that the dog will be fine with so many things and in so many situations until "all of sudden" they aren't because for whatever reason that thing at that time was in their mind worth gaurding. It works until they care more about having that thing.
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To add to what lvoss said, if things are changing in the dynamics of the pack, often a dog will start to guard things that they haven't before, just to make it clear to the other dogs where they think they stand regarding that particular resource. Often it isn't the dog with the highest status that does the most obvious guarding..it is often dogs in the middle, or dogs that are not confident with their status.
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Well said Andrea.. and the more dogs you add to a pack, the more the dynamics change.. and it is usually really small changes that are very, very easy to miss even to the most experienced…
So, Petra, DO NOT beat yourself up over this... it happens....
To Rita Jean, as said, it works till it doesn't including free feeding... as in, would you free feed Human children? Pets/animals are no different. Structured feeding schedules set ground rules...
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Pat, my kids eat more or less when they want. If this makes me a bad mom o well. When I was at home we ate at 6:00 A.M. at Noon and 6:00 P.M. your one (1) min late your food is in the trash. I knew I would never raise my kids like that. Enough said as they say that's what makes the world go around we are all different and that is a good thing.
Rita Jean
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The thing that catches most owners off gaurd about resource gaurding is that the dog will be fine with so many things and in so many situations until "all of sudden" they aren't because for whatever reason that thing at that time was in their mind worth gaurding. It works until they care more about having that thing.
I definitely agree with the "all of a sudden" type nature of resource guarding. Nemo has some guarding tendancies against other dogs now which I really didn't see much signs of early on. You don't always know what they consider "high value". Nemo went berserk on my beagle years ago over a dropped peanut. He would be fine with cooked chicken and lots of other things that you would think would be high value. It wasn't a behavior that escalated obviously over time, it just happened. But regardless now I watch them carefully and separate him and Zoni when they eat and even when we give them treats that could potentially cause an issue. And now I know what to look for. I definitely agree about the Language of Dogs DVD. Brenda Aloff's book is nice too.
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just a update.
We went to the behavorist today and it went well. Otis didn't like going and kept on making very bark like noises..so funny..eventually we figured out he was seeing himself in a window reflection.
We are starting with feeding them in one area only as supposed to inside if it cold or outside if it is nice..She said we could feed in crates if we want to but make it one set place.
We are also starting in having them go to a specific spot, like their beds when we eat, no need to lock them up in crates just yet, she wants to see how he behaves if given this command, Moses will get the same treatment, and we are retaking obedience, even though Otis knows it well and follows through on most commands, a few he is not so good at, like come for instance, and she wants him to he very good at them so it gets to the point where we don't have to intervene, he simply knows not to touch certain items or come around the table when food is out or what have you.
She is very confident that we have gotten this early and that he should learn rather easily/quickly, so we'll see what happens.
I have also signed Moses up for ob class (again) so they are both on the same page and so are we, my hubby and I.
I know this won't be easy by no means, but feel confident that we are heading in the right direction..will keep you posted on how it goes..
Again, thanks for all your help, ideas, and insight..I love being part of this forum.. -
Very good job Petra! Consistency is the key. Keep us updated on how it's going.
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so much of things retraining the humans to new behaviors. i find myself sometimes backsliding on what i'm suposed to do.
glad to read things are looking up.
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Great news Petra….. I am sure you will be able to resolve the issues...
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It all seems very positive and hopefully you'll solve the problems with such good help.
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We are still struggling with Otis and his unpredictable resource guarding, the other day he bit a friend of ours, more or less our dogsitter, so Otis knows him really well..
Otis and Moses got into it over something, don't even know what, and James tried to break it up, and got bit bad on his hand and fingers, the teeth even bit through two of his fingernails..either way, James knew not to try to break it up but his emotions took over and he did the wrong thing..he isn't mad/upset or anything but I am getting scared for our safety and more so for my kids safety.
Otis is scheduled for neutering party tomorrow morning..;) so I hope this will help as I am running out of options and more importantly time..not that I don't have time, but I am not willing to let this go on in our home much longer..
What should I do? Do you think neutering will help? What are my options if it doesn't?
He is doing better on the feeding and agression during those times, much better actually, but now it seems he is resourcing other things, like some toys, either the dogs toys or one that he got from the kids rooms..or shoes, now all of a sudden he is resource guarding shoes..is he reaching out to other things as he is now longer in control over the feeding tantrums he had?Either way I am distraught and very saddened, I feel helpless..
Thanks guys -
Is there a reason he is not neutered? Have you had a complete thyroid test done, not just a t4?
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I wanted to wait until he passed a year..now he is 14 months. I have not done any thyroid, due to his young age.
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Would not hurt to have the thyroid checked. And with having him neutered tomorrow, he should have a full blood panel before hand.
Have you talked to the behaviorist with these latest developments? Has the behavorist been to the house? A good behaviorist needs to see the home and what is happening in the home to really make the right assessment.
My take as an outsider is that Otis is a "want a be" and is going to continue to challenge your Pongo male, as it seems he has zero'ed in on him. And if neutering helps, you will NOT see and immediate change as it takes a couple of months for the hormones to settle down….
Hind sight being 20/20... it might have been better to have him neutered before you brought home another male
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I was wondering the same thing as Pat, what has the behaviorist said about this escalation? and has the behaviorist done a consult in your home?
Neutering may help but it really depends on the dog.
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Sorry to hear it is escalating. I too would be curious to hear what the behaviorist had to say about the new guarding of the kids shoes & toys (which seems really dangerous to me). And definitely have his thyroid checked - since they should be doing a full panel prior to surgery anyway. I think Pat might be onto something about him being a "wanna be" leader though - based on your description of how he behaves not only with Moses but with your other 2 dogs prior to Moses' arrival - particularly your other male dog.
Hopefully the neutering helps - it can't hurt - but as Pat said, maybe should have been done sooner, when the whole behavior originally started. Moses is still intact, right - are you planning on neutering him as well? I wonder if one is left intact if the problem might still continue (would the threat would still be there to the wanna be leader) - I don't know, maybe someone with more experience might be able to say.
Did you ever get the books Feisty Fido & How to be the Leader of the Pack - by Patricia McConnell? Those are both quick reads that have really great info about fighting and pack dynamics and control.
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I have yet to get a hold of the behaviorist but of course am awaiting that she get back with me. What wpuld she be able to see in my home? I mean, she would have to live here to see his unpredictability..it is sweet one minute/day and then not so sweet the next, new things seems to get him,going different days.
He is especially sweet with people coming into our home, likeyesterday we had a realtor come and he sat by her side for over an hour and would just nudge her every so often for a pet, very unlike how he was months ago with strangers.Yes hindsight is so much better then my current sight, but now I am here and have to work with what I got.
I will have the vet do a thyroid panel as well, could he already, this young, have issues?
I know it can take a while for the hormones to level out after a neuter, but we are ready for that..I just hope it helps even if just a little and then the training even more so..
Since Moses is part of foundations stock, neutering him is something we might do, but not yet, he has to grow up first and some of these grandes don't stop growing in height until they are two.Renault1 I did get "How to be a leader of the pac", but my life took over and I haven't started reading it yet..I will tonight though.
My last resort would be finding him a home, a home where he is the only dog, but I am not ready for that yet..no way. Then again, who's to say he would be better in that environment?
I hope I answered most queries, if not..let me know..I will keep you posted.
Again, thanks for all your help. -
A good behaviorist sees many things that the normal dog owner doesn't see. That is why typically they come to the home to observe the dogs. They don't always need to see something nasty happening to be able to figure out what is going on. I have never heard of taking a dog to a behaviorist, rather then they come to the home.
