@jbuckee how are things now?
Otis just nipped my son…
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Again as pointed out, you may not be reading the signals that are being given off… and a little story here... My Maggii was very laid back, my Fatia was a "want be" top dog and decided that Maggii was the problem. Now in dog language, if you watched Maggii, while she seems submissive, she really was not.. but instead a very confindent bitch and happy in her own skin. And Fatia saw this as a challenge. She would attack Maggii at every chance... Maggii, while she would defend herself, was never the aggressor of a situation.. but still Fatia saw her as a challenge... Long story short, Fatia found a new home (and it worked perfectly) but to the untrained eye, no one would have picked up on the pack pecking order, if you didn't know each of the dogs and their body postures/language.
Rather then a "trainer" unless also a behaviorist, I would opt for a behaviorist that can give you clues/tips to put into action to help the situation. And trust me, it will not get better on its own.
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I have to agree with Lisa, Pat & Andrea - a behaviorist is in order - it does seem that you'll need outside help to fix this. I think it is very possible there are other signals that you are missing (do buy the Language of Dogs DVD if you don't have it already) - and it does sound like the problem is escalating and won't get better until you get help. Just curious, but did Otis bite you or your husband before Moses came along?
The feeding in crates and keeping them crated while you are cleaning up is good, but you also have the added issue if the kids have food at any time the dogs are loose in the house - that would be what I'd be most concerned about at this point. Otis has shown that he isn't afraid of going after your son to get food.
Oh, and one thing you said was that you should be "faster & more nimble" when doing trading up with Otis so as not to get bitten - I'd have to disagree, you shouldn't have to be worrying about how fast you do anything.
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I have to agree with Lisa, Pat & Andrea - a behaviorist is in order - it does seem that you'll need outside help to fix this. I think it is very possible there are other signals that you are missing (do buy the Language of Dogs DVD if you don't have it already) - and it does sound like the problem is escalating and won't get better until you get help. Just curious, but did Otis bite you or your husband before Moses came along?
The feeding in crates and keeping them crated while you are cleaning up is good, but you also have the added issue if the kids have food at any time the dogs are loose in the house - that would be what I'd be most concerned about at this point. Otis has shown that he isn't afraid of going after your son to get food.
Oh, and one thing you said was that you should be "faster & more nimble" when doing trading up with Otis so as not to get bitten - I'd have to disagree, you shouldn't have to be worrying about how fast you do anything.[/[/COLOR]QUOTE]
True…quick tip. When you are starting this training, once you get the dog's attention with the good treat...you can throw it across the room...or at the very least hold it far away, so they have to get up and leave what they are guarding, and you can calmly pick it up. You do the ground work for this behavior when they DON'T have something they are guarding though, by training a 'leave it' and then a cue to move away from it 'over there', and then 'sit wait' while you get the item...and then a reward. You train all those steps during a calm time, with no other dogs in the room.
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I will see if I can find a behaviorist in our area, shouldn't be too hard I hope.
No Otis never bit any of us before Moses got here..maybe a clue. Moses is very large compared to Otis, so maybe that is one of the subtle clues I am missing, maybe Otis feel threatened by size. Otis is not neutered yet, could that be part of the problem?
..and you are all right, I shouldn't have to worry about being fast enough or nimble around any of my dogs in fear of getting lunged at..this is our house..not theirs, but they are allowed to share it with us.
My kids have rules not to walk around and eat and only to eat at the kitchen table, during the days if weather permits the dogs are outside, if not, I will start crating them so no opportunities are given to Otis to steal or attack.
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I will see if I can find a behaviorist in our area, shouldn't be too hard I hope.
No Otis never bit any of us before Moses got here..maybe a clue. Moses is very large compared to Otis, so maybe that is one of the subtle clues I am missing, maybe Otis feel threatened by size. Otis is not neutered yet, could that be part of the problem?
..and you are all right, I shouldn't have to worry about being fast enough or nimble around any of my dogs in fear of getting lunged at..this is our house..not theirs, but they are allowed to share it with us.
My kids have rules not to walk around and eat and only to eat at the kitchen table, during the days if weather permits the dogs are outside, if not, I will start crating them so no opportunities are given to Otis to steal or attack.
Actually, that wasn't really the point…though it is a valid point! Being fast isn't part of the trading up. You want the dog to think that something GOOD is happening to him, rather than having something taken away...so the speed, or agility with which you do it should have no bearing...and actually doing things quickly, and frantically tends to raise the level of arousal, rather than lower it.
For a dog like Otis, who has shown you that he is willing to use his teeth to defend 'his' food...you will need a systematic approach to retraining him to let him know it is okay for everybody to take stuff away from him. It is a good preliminary plan to keep kids and dogs separate when food is involved, but you will still need to "re-program" Otis because accidents happen where people drop food, or something gets left behind and the dogs come in, etc.
Make sure the behaviorist/trainer that you choose uses a technique that makes sense to you. You need someone who will use positive reinforcement techniques, but also has experience in effectively dealing with resource guarding...you might ask for some references to contact. It sounds like the first bit of advice you got from your trainer wasn't bad...but didn't really do anything to address the problem.
Good luck, and let us know how it goes...
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The only thing I'd add to Andrea's excellent post is that I doubt it has much to do with Moses' arrival or Moses' size, but who knows.
And regarding whether it has to do with Otis being intact - that is anyone's guess. I've said this before, personally if I had kids, there isn't any way in heck that I'd have intact animals in my house - that is just MY opinion. I find that taking that out of the equation makes for a lot more stable household and for calmer pets.
Add to that he's managed to escape from your yard - well, it only takes that 1 time to have an unplanned litter of pups - accidents happen, both in escapes and pregnancies. Having intact animals is a huge responsibility IMHO and takes a lot of management - especially when there are multiple intact animals in a household.
This is definitely not a slam at you AT ALL, so please don't take it that way. Just my .02.
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Quercus and Renault1.
Thanks for your input..
I do believe we are on the right track with feeding them in their crates..just have to get myself and family used to it, but it will work fine in the end.
Otis will get fixed, just wanted to wait until he turned one..well he is one now, now we can move on and get him fixed.I have emailed two behavorists in Houston (all I could find), and will interview both of them to see which one is the best fit.
Renault1, by the way, not taking your post as a slam at all, it is your opinion and I agree with it, it is a lot of responsibility, thus I am freaked out if he gets out..for his safety and his potential "mistake".
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Oh, yes…I missed that part of the post...I would most definitely neuter him ASAP...that alleviate a lot of the tension that causes these issues.
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Found a behaviorist that we will meet with tomorrow at 11:00 am..she sounds very much on the same page as some of the things you've already told me..will keep y'all posted.
again thanks for all your help. -
It must go back to BYB and breeding for temperament. Seems to me when all else fails we blame the breeder but with that having been said I have to say Jaycee has never tried to bite anyone. (Maybe that is because of those awful uneven teeth that some seem to know so much about.) I have two (2) females Jaycee and Spice that eat out of the same food bowl at the same time no problems. As of a couple weeks ago Jaycee got a new baby brother and now there are three heads in a bowl and no problems. Even with those little baby teeth going after Jaycee she has never once tried to bite or be mean to the baby.
Rita Jean
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@Rita:
It must go back to BYB and breeding for temperament. Seems to me when all else fails we blame the breeder but with that having been said I have to say Jaycee has never tried to bite anyone. (Maybe that is because of those awful uneven teeth that some seem to know so much about.) I have two (2) females Jaycee and Spice that eat out of the same food bowl at the same time no problems. As of a couple weeks ago Jaycee got a new baby brother and now there are three heads in a bowl and no problems. Even with those little baby teeth going after Jaycee she has never once tried to bite or be mean to the baby.
Rita Jean
This particular thread and issue has no bearing on the dogs' breeding at all. Lots of dogs are resource guarders, from good breeders and bad…show dogs, not show dogs. Congrats on Jaycee being kind to the other dogs...I hope you find that they all continue to get along...you don't really see how things are going to shake down between dogs for about a year or more.
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@Rita:
It must go back to BYB and breeding for temperament. Seems to me when all else fails we blame the breeder but with that having been said I have to say Jaycee has never tried to bite anyone. (Maybe that is because of those awful uneven teeth that some seem to know so much about.) I have two (2) females Jaycee and Spice that eat out of the same food bowl at the same time no problems. As of a couple weeks ago Jaycee got a new baby brother and now there are three heads in a bowl and no problems. Even with those little baby teeth going after Jaycee she has never once tried to bite or be mean to the baby.
Rita Jean
Breeding for temperament should be first in any breeding program, along with health. However, there are many people that "miss" clues given off by their pets that then lead to unacceptable behaviors. So I am not sure what the point of you comments are….
BYB's and PuppyMillers do not care about anything other then making a buck, period. So if they did have dogs with bad temperaments, they would not care and breed them anyway.
As far as eating out of the same bowl (not something I would do) it works till it doesn't.... and as far as Jaycee accepting the pup, again, it works till it doesn't...
The problem that Petra is having is not unique to just our breed. And I totally support that she knows and admits it is a problem and is determined to resolve the problem as soon as possible.
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I don't know if it is the breeders fault, maybe I got him too late, meaning if he was brought into a home environment before 17 weeks he would've been socialized better, maybe not, no one can really tell.
Maybe I brought it out in him because I feed raw, some people argue that angle as well (not on this forum but other on other ones), or maybe he just needs to know his place..either way, we are working on it and if all else fail..we do what every body else seems to do..dump him and get a new and improved one….
I so hope y'all understand my sarcasm here..we are never upgrading our pets, we work with what we have and love them for who they are..I am happy to hear that you have a new baby onboard, congrats. What color is he? Do you have any pictures of the three loving life together?
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I don't know if it is the breeders fault, maybe I got him too late, meaning if he was brought into a home environment before 17 weeks he would've been socialized better, maybe not, no one can really tell.
Maybe I brought it out in him because I feed raw, some people argue that angle as well (not on this forum but other on other ones), or maybe he just needs to know his place..either way, we are working on it and if all else fail..we do what every body else seems to do..dump him and get a new and improved one….
I so hope y'all understand my sarcasm here..we are never upgrading our pets, we work with what we have and love them for who they are..I am happy to hear that you have a new baby onboard, congrats. What color is he? Do you have any pictures of the three loving life together?
Don't blame yourself! He is doing what dogs do naturally to control their resources…he just doesn't understand it isn't appropriate to do that towards people...and you have to admit, it would be hard to understand that as a dog. So you are doing exactly what you should, finding a way to explain it to him in ways that he can understand.
Oh, and feeding raw has NOTHING to do with it....don't even pay any attention to that rubbish!
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Jaycee and Spice have now as of 7th of March been eating out of the same bowl at the same time. The day we brought Jaycee home we let Spice know they were family I have done this all my life with all my dogs and if it's luck or gods help I do not know but it has always worked for us.
I did not think for one min that you were going to dump Otis as we all know that is not the answer for you or the dog.
Red and White yes there are lots and lots of pictures from the min I came in the door that night on my daughter takes pictures by the hour. Four flights later I got my boy home. Been really great to watch the two of them run and play. My old girl Spice loves him but she just cannot keep up but they do sleep head to head.
Wish you luck with Otis in my eyes it's like your children when we have them someone becomes master and the other slave. I have no great words of wisdom. I just know we have always had our dogs eat together and we free feed funny when one eats like a call they all go and get to eating.
Rita Jean
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Rita…congrats on your new pup. What is his name and do you think you might show him? Oh and don't forget to post pics.
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I don't know if it is the breeders fault, maybe I got him too late, meaning if he was brought into a home environment before 17 weeks he would've been socialized better, maybe not, no one can really tell.
Maybe I brought it out in him because I feed raw, some people argue that angle as well (not on this forum but other on other ones), or maybe he just needs to know his place..either way, we are working on it and if all else fail..we do what every body else seems to do..dump him and get a new and improved one….
I so hope y'all understand my sarcasm here..we are never upgrading our pets, we work with what we have and love them for who they are..I am happy to hear that you have a new baby onboard, congrats. What color is he? Do you have any pictures of the three loving life together?
I don't know if you need to blame yourself for having brought it out in him Petra. He may just be that way and needs work. Dogs all have their different personalities like people. I rescued Buddy at approx 7 months old and he may have come from a BYB as he still has his dew claws. Who knows where he came from as he was wondering the streets of Highland,CA. So after a year he shows no sign of resource guarding as I have just reached and pulled bones from him with no reaction other than a blank stare and he's never growled at any other dogs. Just my 2 cents.
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Petra…you can't blame yourself - many people have had the same issues with their dogs. You see you have a problem with Otis, you've admitted it now and you are seeking out help - and no doubt you'll follow thru with the training the behaviorist advises. It is all a learning process - don't beat yourself up, what good will that do anyway.
Good luck and keep us posted how he progresses.
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Petra, I just want to say, I think you are doing the right thing. You noticed a problem and you are getting help now before it escalates any further. The reason Otis has the problem really isn't nearly as important as the fact that you are doing all the right things to help work through that problem. Don't beat yourself up about it, just keep working with him.
Rita Jean, just because two dogs can eat out of the same bowl without fighting does not mean that either dog does not or cannot have an issue with resource gaurding. The item has to be of high enough value in the dog's mind to be worth gaurding. Food just may not be that valuable that warrants risking personal injury for that dog. The thing that catches most owners off gaurd about resource gaurding is that the dog will be fine with so many things and in so many situations until "all of sudden" they aren't because for whatever reason that thing at that time was in their mind worth gaurding. It works until they care more about having that thing.
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To add to what lvoss said, if things are changing in the dynamics of the pack, often a dog will start to guard things that they haven't before, just to make it clear to the other dogs where they think they stand regarding that particular resource. Often it isn't the dog with the highest status that does the most obvious guarding..it is often dogs in the middle, or dogs that are not confident with their status.
