You should submit that to the shelter challenge picture contest!
He's Arriving On Saturday!
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Defamation only comes into play if what is said is claimed to be untrue. If someone bought a dog from a breeder, the breeder claimed the dog was not an affected dog and it turned out to be the opposite, the person who bought the dog could legally state that they were lied to (assuming they have proof to show that was the case). It's not defamation if it's true, regardless of contracts.
Actually, if you want to go the extra mile you can wire the funds instead of paying by cash or check. In the event that you are defrauded, the individual accepting the wire (presumably the one who committed the said fraud) automatically gets shifted into federal criminal charges since it was done by wire (wire fraud gets a lot more attention from federal authorities). It's actually what I did since I hate writing out checks. Granted I wasn't defrauded, I knew if I was lied to I would have a much firmer leg to stand on.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1343.html
Just a thought, anyone who knows/understands the law and is intentionally lying will avoid any wire transaction.
If the breeder covers themselves in the contact, you would have a very hard time in court… I guess that was my only point along with, why would you even want to deal with someone that you are already thinking about what if I want to sue them....
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That is the only health issue listed.
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Along with Bella's tummy troubles… And the fact that the dog they use as a sire was sold at an auction and note what the person says about this breeder... and even worse that they sell to pet stores....
And visit this thread also
http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=605 -
That is the only health issue listed.
Not true, she (Bella) has tummy troubles if you go back to all the threads started by her…
And fixing patellas can (especially in Califoria) cost 2 to 3,000.00 for the surgery.
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I cant seem to find the posts about the Tummy troubles, I'll have a more detailed look in the morning.
And I will be mentioning the patella issue to the Vet on Monday.
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http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=4739
It is obvious that you made your decision to support this BYB and in my opinion 1/2 a step from a Puppy Miller since they sell to pets stores… so I wish you the best
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I have just finished reading these posts and want to say I hope things work out for you. I wish I had understood more when I first posted here. They tried to warn me about my zoe but I didnt understand how it all worked and was sure they were talking about another dog. There are so many zoe/zoeys. I asked the breeder about fanconi but didnt know how to look up the testing. This forum even led me to the sight but it was confusing and I didnt find anything so figured again it couldnt be her. So we went to pick up our puppy met the breeder and she looked me in the eye and talked with us for a couple of hours getting to know my family, my 9 yr old daughter then handed over this puppy. She is beautiful, loving and so full of Basenji mischief and she brings joy to our lives daily. Everyday I love her more. My Zoe was tested before I got her and she is positive infected fanconi. So with all the good I have to worry about when this will happen. She is only just over 1 yr and I would never think of putting her down I also dont fully know what I'm in for. I just know I will do the best I can and that I dont wish this mar on anyones happiness with their new baby.
I thank Tanza and Ivoss for trying to warm me. Having got Zoe and fallen so under her spell I cant imagine having another dog but maybe if I had known before who knows. I just wanted you to know my story.
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Forever Amber.. Thank you for posting your story here…. and sharing with the group what happened with you.... and that is the problem with any health concern... you just never know.... the more you can reduce the odds, the more that you will have all the time to share with your family companion. While no one, not ever responsible breeders can say without a doubt that their puppies will never have problems... cause we can't... however.. we can do the best we can before breeding to reduce the odds. Especially with something like Fanconi and other health concerns that can be seen in different pedigrees. But if breeders are not testing, no one knows.. and in the end it is the pup that suffers the result. But at least with a responsible breeder, they are in it for the long haul... and if your pup develops problems, responsible breeders are there to support you.. not just grab the money and run....
It is beyond criminal what happened to Forever Amber... as that breeder did test and did know, but decided not to tell the prospective buyer... that is way beyond horrible, IMO.... they reduced the price and got them to "buy" into getting that pup..
Forever Amber, glad that you are here... and fingers crossed for the future that Zoe stays healthly for a very long time.... by the way, how is her tail problem? -
Her tail is all curled and she is back to normal but she is going to the vet anyway on friday. I printed out the information on fanconi for the vet that was so conveniently on this thread just to be sure he understands. I have been going to this vet since I came to PA 16 yrs ago so I'm sure he will help me out as much as possible. I'm still hoping I will be lucky with zoe but it will always be my biggest worry for all of her life.
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I don't think she said what litter was Kai was from… but these are the dogs the Timmons' have:
Zerah's Little Tex [r/w M, HP089149/01 USA, 3 Feb 2004]
x
Nanny Owens [r/w F, HP127830/05 USA, 20 Nov 2004]and the second litter was:
WL's Alex
x
Kk Sara Named Me Alix [r/w F, HP057520/01 USA, 10 Jul 2003]The second breeding has produced dogs that are with Keota in OK. Horrible health issues with these dogs.
A couple on the board bought a puppy from them and it lived for only a month. It was sicker than a dog when they got it and that was a hard lesson learned. They were offered another pup, but no money back.
They ended up getting one of my adults.Best of luck with your pup.
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@Forever:
Her tail is all curled and she is back to normal but she is going to the vet anyway on friday. I printed out the information on fanconi for the vet that was so conveniently on this thread just to be sure he understands. I have been going to this vet since I came to PA 16 yrs ago so I'm sure he will help me out as much as possible. I'm still hoping I will be lucky with zoe but it will always be my biggest worry for all of her life.
Good for you ….. and fingers crossed that Zoe stays healthly for a very long time...
Remember... you want to start test strips when she is two... and since the strips are only good for 6 months, use them 3/4 days in a row... as early onset of Fanconi can produce mixed results over a couple of days... Early onset you might find OK one day.. spilling the next....
And you might want to discuss with your Vet were to have blood gases done, as that is the next step if you find sugar in the urine. That way you are prepared... -
I don't think she said what litter was Kai was from… but these are the dogs the Timmons' have:
Zerah's Little Tex [r/w M, HP089149/01 USA, 3 Feb 2004]
x
Nanny Owens [r/w F, HP127830/05 USA, 20 Nov 2004]and the second litter was:
WL's Alex
x
Kk Sara Named Me Alix [r/w F, HP057520/01 USA, 10 Jul 2003]The second breeding has produced dogs that are with Keota in OK. Horrible health issues with these dogs.
A couple on the board bought a puppy from them and it lived for only a month. It was sicker than a dog when they got it and that was a hard lesson learned. They were offered another pup, but no money back.
They ended up getting one of my adults.Best of luck with your pup.
I don't think they know what litter this pup is from… but I echo your thoughts Kathy.... best of luck with your pup.
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Remember… you want to start test strips when she is two... and since the strips are only good for 6 months, use them 3/4 days in a row... as early onset of Fanconi can produce mixed results over a couple of days... Early onset you might find OK one day.. spilling the next....
And you might want to discuss with your Vet were to have blood gases done, as that is the next step if you find sugar in the urine. That way you are prepared...Actually, for several months you could get off and on results on a basenji spilling sugar. Since the strips come in a bottle of 100…. they will go bad before you use them up... so I tell people to strip-test bi-monthly... use days that you remember, like paydays or 1st/15th. Better to catch it early than let them go too long in betweein tests!
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The more I think about it and read this thread, the more thankful I am to those who "criticized" me for trying to make a really bad decision: Lisa, Pat, Kathy, a few others… I hope that SpoiledKai will make the same decision as me: to not get the puppy, although now it does not seem like it. Yes, it's SUPER hard, when you have planned your life to inculde another furball, spent money to prepare for its arrival and already fallen in love with it. This is the second time I had to give up the B puppy (although for completely different reasons)... it only got harder this time. Still, not anywhere near as hard as losing the dog to uncurable condition, which I have also had in the past (Lisa reminded me about how painful it is). SpoiledKai, my heart goes out to you just having to think about that... Still I do not regret making that decision. I might have to wait another year for a new pup, but this time it's going to be great, I know that. Third time's the charm, right?
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I'm just so glad that I did my homework and have a sleeping basenjipup who only is faconi carrier. I feel so sorry for those of you who have faconi affected dogs.
I've had sick dogs, and the last on I lost to syringomyelia only got to be a year old. Its just heartbeaking to have to put a young (any dog - really) dog to sleep. I hope I never have to do that again. -
There's nothing wrong with trying to educate someone on the health concerns, but I'll be honest, sometimes it comes across to appear very cold instead of helpful. This is why we see people distance themselves because they feel intimidated. Hence my point that everyone is human and you need to understand that fact before asking "why on earth would anyone do that?".
My suggestion is that maybe some of you need to look at how you direct your responses and perhaps try a different approach. I think it's great that the knowledgeable individuals on here take the time to educate us on the important health concerns and the guidelines for finding a responsible breeder. I really do, but unfortunately it comes across very cold and harsh at times and that does not help the situation as a lot of people will distance themselves from that type of behavior.
The idea is to be helpful and understanding, not judgmental. We could all benefit by learning more about this breed and I think sometimes that passion can cause us to get a bit emotional about the topic. No one wants to be lied to, no one wants to take in a Basenji that is Fanconi positive expecting a healthy dog, etc.
I'll make one other point, the reason why some of these irresponsible breeders stay in business is because they are very warm when it comes to interaction with the customer. This attracts business, it's very straight forward.
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I'll make one other point, the reason why some of these irresponsible breeders stay in business is because they are very warm when it comes to interaction with the customer. This attracts business, it's very straight forward.
Correct.
And the way "newcomers" usually leave here and get their BYB or PM dog is because they get treated like crap on this forum.
Plain and simple.
Honey attracts far more suitors than s&#t. -
Kananga thanks for saying what you did…for someone who is rather new around this forum I've find myself hesitant to ask questions and seek advice now that I've followed along on some of these posts. It can be rather intimidating to someone seeking advice to feel so criticized for not know any better. I know its offered with the best of intentions but it sure can come across very harsh. just my 2 cents from someone who may not know everything I should but who loves their basenji more then anything.
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..it is very hard for me to emotionally fall in love with a dog or prospect of a dog and then not get it..even though I am supporting the "bad guys" or I am potentially getting a dog with bad genetics or what have you, if I do get it.
We as humans think/hope that it won't happen to me, or this will be that one occasion where the "breeder" is a good, honest guy, he is in it for the breed, yadiyada..
If I don't get that one dog, what will happen to it, the "breeder" already has it, it is not like they will euthanize it to get rid of it, should someone else not be interested..they will turn to shelters or rescue groups, so this is a two fold problem, in my opinion.
If we are to radicate these breeding practices we must unite as animal lovers and not buy from them, nor should the shelters or rescue groups take dogs from them, year after year…We must find a way to make it impossible for the "breeders" to sell these dogs hence they will stop breeding in the first place....and you have to start somewhere, even if it starts with you and your refusal to support it.
I have learned since I got Otis (less then a year ago) to ..
*Not shop for dogs online or in pet stores
*Not believe everything you hear, ask for proof (paperwise or the like), I had my "breeder" grilled at one point and he came through for me
*Do my due diligence as far as what type of breed it is, what is to be expected of that breed when it gets older etc etc. It is a living creature after all, not a sweater I can return once it is worn out...Will I return Otis, I thought about it, once we had some doubts about his genetics not being correct..we since have solved that via my "breeder" and the AKC peeps, clerical error, but trust me I was pissed and had a ticket waiting for me or should I say him.
Cold, heartless?? maybe, but if they guarantee something they should own up to it and deal with the consequences.
Would I have sent him back..no way..but I needed to get that pissed about the doubtful genetics for the "breeder" to see that at least one person is standing up for what she belives in..
By the way, I knew that my parent stock was fanconi clear, that was the first question on my mind when I contacted my "breeder", of course I didn't ask about all the other health issues..like PPM, now that is another story for another thread...just my 0.52 cents about it all..
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Kananga and Kathy you are right and Kananga especially about these BYB/PM's. They do suck people in with their bull#$@!. And because these people suck them in with their crap and lies, sometime the voice of reason needs to be louder then theirs. However if you read the beginnings of each thread when someone come on the list and says they are getting (note here meaning has not brought that puppy home yet). The most typical question is Who are you getting your puppy from?… Then, have they been DNA tested for Fanconi? All very civilized. And when many of us hear that there has not been at least DNA Testing for Fanconi, the questions get a bit harder to the prospective buyer. However those questions are to trying and get the buyer to think twice. And when people just show up on the boards that already went and got a puppy from a PM/BYB.. then the most suggested is that the at least the DNA is done. I have never seen anyone here tell people to return the puppy....
Sorry, to sugar coat the truth is not going to make someone really stop and think about what they are about to do.
Which begs the point of this question that I will direct to diff_eqs: When you first posted about getting the puppy from Mtn Springs, had all the responses been something on the line of...
"Super congrats, cute puppy, health tested? You will have lots of fun..."
Would those response caught your attention and get you to step back and reconsider?
I think not....
