8 month old is biting…can't get him under control

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Eh..okay, but dogs have a different language than humans….you do know that right?

You might not be aware of it, but when YOU (human) enter a room with strangers, you actually do give off a body language depending on your personality. Aggressive, confident, submissive...etc.
You might be a confident person, and go right in and say "Hello". Others will stand off to the side by themselves. Some will gradually move closer etc. Does not mean one way is (as you put it) the "normal" way.

Dogs have different personality's too. Some are insecure and will roll on their backs instantly, others will run in with confidence and start playing.

It's a shame you see rolling on the back as a bad sign. Something it most definitely is not.

I highly suggest getting the The Language of Dogs DVD.

Er yes I do know that dogs have different body language. Sarah Kaljnas' dvd, 'The Language of Dogs' is excellent and I bought it after listening to her present at the APDTA conference last year. I do not make direct comparisons to dog and human interactions but try to use them as analogies.

But when entering a dog park with 10-20 dogs running about I do not know those dogs individually , so I cannot correctly interpret each of their displays. Nor can I watch multiple dogs, I have to go on overall impression. Which I why I say multiple dogs 'having' (and this is key) to show bellies combined with dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures causes me concern.

I have never said showing bellies by itself is a bad sign.

I have also added that this is my choice to exercise my dogs daily in off-leash in less densely dog populated areas, so I hardly think I am coming across as neurotic owner who does not let their dogs interact with other dogs, but I try to ensure that anytime my dogs have interactions with other dogs, and that its a positive experience for the dogs we meet as well as my own.

With apologies to OP for taking this thread off topic.

[starrlamia]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

thats what I said. DOGS DO NOT FORCE EACH OTHER OVER ONTO THEIR BELLIES UNLESS THEY ARE PLAYING (i forgot the playing part… but it still holds for the fighting part). Any serious roll over onto the belly is an attempt to kill the dog not submit the dog. The Monks of New Skete who initially wrote about alpha rolls and whom made it popular have recanted their statements about it! The alpha roll was based on research on a pack of wolves who were a bunch of random wolves thrown together in captivity, they did not act as a natural pack of wolves would in the wild and this alpha rolling theory has been scientifically disproven.

But when entering a dog park with 10-20 dogs running about I do not know those dogs individually , so I cannot correctly interpret each of their displays. Nor can I watch multiple dogs, I have to go on overall impression. Which I why I say multiple dogs 'having' (and this is key) to show bellies combined with dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures causes me concern

honestly entering a dog park where there are too many dogs to keep an eye on concerns me. It is too easy for a strange dog to be less tolerant of other dogs and start a fight.

Alpha rolls:
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

the dominance theory of dog training (ala cesar melan) has been disproven pretty often if you do a google search. Alpha members of a pack are not violent and generally only step in for extreme circumstances, generally it is the beta wolves that do the discplining and the lower ranking wolves who start fights over position in the pack.

[Quercus]

@annimon:

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

Dogs do roll each other in play, but that is out of context for what the original poster was referring to. The newest research does indicate that the science behind the "alpha roll" was flawed…and one dog never physically rolls another dog as a correction..the submissive dog rolls ITSELF to show the dominant dog respect, and trust "here is my neck and belly, I know you won't hurt me". Dogs who are having a SERIOUS to the death fight WILL roll each other and attempt to kill each other.

And no...withdrawing attention absolutely has NO bearing on separation anxiety. It is exactly how dogs tell each other that behavior is not appreciated.

[Quercus]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

That is right^^ BUT…the dog who is rolling over is initiating it...the dog who is dominating is NOT rolling him over until he submits.

Here is an analogy...you can teach your kids to share by praising them when they hand toys to you, or you can yank the toy out of their hand. The result is the same, you have the toy...but what did the child learn?

[tanza]

I agree Andrea, good analogy…

[starrlamia]

@Quercus:

Dogs do roll each other in play, but that is out of context for what the original poster was referring to. The newest research does indicate that the science behind the "alpha roll" was flawed…and one dog never physically rolls another dog as a correction..the submissive dog rolls ITSELF to show the dominant dog respect, and trust "here is my neck and belly, I know you won't hurt me". Dogs who are having a SERIOUS to the death fight WILL roll each other and attempt to kill each other.

And no...withdrawing attention absolutely has NO bearing on separation anxiety. It is exactly how dogs tell each other that behavior is not appreciated.

thanks, my articulation has been lacking lately :S

[tangokor]

Annimon- Thanks for the post. I agree, I'm not terrifying him just getting him in a position to relax. I don't know what else to do sometimes and don't want to use the crate as punishment either. I had teenagers here the other day and he was getting wound up, jumping and trying to bite and I had them stand still and stop play and he soon stopped. This is much harder to do w/ my younger ones who can get afraid and run and don't want to stand still when he acts up .

The past few days with the young kids away at camp have been pretty easy, I've had more time to focus on him and more time to get him excercised which does make a big difference.

The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.

[lvoss]

@tangokor:

The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.

Why are you taking things away from him? If you need to get something that he has, then you should be doing trading up. You offer him something of high value in exchange for the thing that he has. Having a cookie jar with something like duck jerky around for making trades works well.

Time outs are good tools and very effective in getting the point across that a behavior is inappropriate. If you do not want to use the crate for time out then have a room or ex-pen that he can be placed in for a few minutes while he calms down. Many times with young dogs they just get over stimulated and need that chance to calm down, some will even have fallen asleep before the time out is over because they were really just over tired.

[starrlamia]

@tangokor:

Annimon- Thanks for the post. I agree, I'm not terrifying him just getting him in a position to relax. I don't know what else to do sometimes and don't want to use the crate as punishment either. I had teenagers here the other day and he was getting wound up, jumping and trying to bite and I had them stand still and stop play and he soon stopped. This is much harder to do w/ my younger ones who can get afraid and run and don't want to stand still when he acts up .

The past few days with the young kids away at camp have been pretty easy, I've had more time to focus on him and more time to get him excercised which does make a big difference.

The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.

The thing is it isnt a relaxing position for dogs, it creates anxiety and also distrust.
A much better way would be to remove him from a situation as soon as you see him getting ramped up. Choose a room or tie where you can place him for a few minutes to settle down. Note which situations he is the worst in and remove him from those situations until he has better self control.
I would start working on Doggie zen as well, to help build that self control.

http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html

the book control unleashed would help as well.

[Patty]

I think as Malaika said that the human's yelp must have a certain pitch. Any excitement exacerbates the position. Whatever action you take it's essential that its done with calmness. It is best to calmly think through whatever action you decide to take. What you must always remember that a Basenji is not like other dogs and it's always wise if you are going to a trainer to make sure that they know Basenjis. It is almost impossible in my opinion for small children to keep excitement at bay and so makes it much more difficult as you need to train them as well!

I suggest that you carefully read through the very good advice you have been given on this forum and work out an action plan. It seems to me that it's essential that you can deal with this as it could be potentially dangerous.

As an example - in the early days in the UK some breeders tried to treat Basenjis as ordinary dogs because that's all they had experienced before - as a consequence their Basenjis became known as having aggressive temperaments whereas this was far from the truth.

Re restraint - it can work if done with love - I had a little bitch adopted from kennels who as soon as she started to get worked up I wrapped her in a 'cuddle' blanket and massaged her with Ttouch untill she relaxed. This worked perfectly and although she was 'cast out' of the kennels because they said she was so aggressive, she never showed agression to humans or other animals foir the rest of her life.

I would say that what is known as dominance theory never works on a Basenjii.

[lvoss]

@Patty:

IRe restraint - it can work if done with love - I had a little bitch adopted from kennels who as soon as she started to get worked up I wrapped her in a 'cuddle' blanket and massaged her with Ttouch untill she relaxed. This worked perfectly and although she was 'cast out' of the kennels because they said she was so aggressive, she never showed agression to humans or other animals foir the rest of her life.

This type of restraint is very different than rolling a dog over on its back. What you describe is much more like the use of a Thundershirt or Calming Cap that are used for helping with anxiety.

[tangokor]

I'm taking things away from him because he always has something he shouldn't and he's destroyed many things. The kids shoes, socks, toys, paper bags, his crate pad. So when he has these things I'm going to get them away from him not let him tear it up while I look for something else to give him. I'm trying to keep him from chewing up everything in the house!! And yes, I have basenji proofed the best I can w/ 2 kids in the house.

I do not have a room that I can keep him in. He will jump any babygate that I put up. So it's his either his crate or the backyard.

[lvoss]

I keep treat jars in various rooms in my house, up on the mantle, on the kitchen counter, on top of my dresser, on high window ledges so I don't have to hunt for a treat, there should be one handy. Every time you take away something of value to him and he gets nothing in return, it only cements that he should gaurd the things he finds because you will just take it from him.

I really recommend watching and working on Its Yer Choice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc, so he knows there is something in it for him to make better choices.

If you have nowhere else for his time outs then his crate, use his crate. Don't do it out of anger though and have clear ground rules about what a time out is. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes.

[khanis]

@tangokor:

I'm taking things away from him because he always has something he shouldn't and he's destroyed many things. The kids shoes, socks, toys, paper bags, his crate pad. So when he has these things I'm going to get them away from him not let him tear it up while I look for something else to give him. I'm trying to keep him from chewing up everything in the house!! And yes, I have basenji proofed the best I can w/ 2 kids in the house.

I do not have a room that I can keep him in. He will jump any babygate that I put up. So it's his either his crate or the backyard.

Do you have a garage?
It would be easy to put another crate in there and use it.
I have children myself… and the rule is...
if the dogs have it, you probably left it down for them.
Too bad for you.
Don't go and tell me you can't say that to a toddler.
That is how children learn.
I was able to learn to keep my things put up.
My brothers learned the same way.
My kids learned to keep the things they wanted up away from dogs and bedroom doors closed.
My children's friends have also learned that stuff laying around in dog reach is free game and I don't care to listen to your drivel after you left something out for my dogs to taste test.

I see that you are coming here for advice.
But, I also see that there are a lot of excuses coming up for WHY you can't do certain things [training techniques that really are proven to work].
If you want this dog to be a good dog,
PLEASE go above and beyond before the dog has been driven to the point he will bite one of the children.

Feel free to chat with those of use that have children that have experience with pups/dogs/children all living under the same roof.

BTW… I never read who the breeder of your dog is... was that ever mentioned in this or another post [that I may not have seen?].

[NerdyDogOwner]

@tangokor:

I'm taking things away from him because he always has something he shouldn't and he's destroyed many things. The kids shoes, socks, toys, paper bags, his crate pad. So when he has these things I'm going to get them away from him not let him tear it up while I look for something else to give him. I'm trying to keep him from chewing up everything in the house!! And yes, I have basenji proofed the best I can w/ 2 kids in the house.

I do not have a room that I can keep him in. He will jump any babygate that I put up. So it's his either his crate or the backyard.

First, it's not his fault you are leaving so many things around for him to chew on. Puppies LOVE to chew, and will chew on anything they find. It's up to you to puppy-safe the area getting rid of things he will potentially chew on. Remember he is teething, and it itches. Chewing helps sooth the irritation.

When he is biting on something get a toy he is allowed to chew on and give him that. Don't yell, just make some fun sounds to get his attention like "Ooh, look! Come here!" and go over to the toy. Eventually he will (hopefully) learn that it's the toy he is supposed to chew on.

It's VERY important to keep a structure. It takes time, and if you keep changing techniques, the dog will not understand.

You have a backyard which is great! Make the yard into the "puppy place". Puppy safe it 100% and he should be very happy there. Only have him inside when you can watch him. Have a screen door or something so he can see and hear you.

It's vital you make your home a safe environment for him.

Is he getting enough exercise/play? He might be lashing out due to frustration. Puppies need the love! Take him out to the yard and play, once he is tired put him in his crate to rest. Make sure you make going to the crate a good thing. Give a treat once you place him in it.

[listeme]

I try to approach the "chewing household things" problem with the same overall approach to puppy training as anything else: eliminate or minimize the chance my puppy will develop bad habits. If he is still in the stage of chewing on everything, don't give him free house time whatsoever. It's just like when you were teaching him not to pee. If you can't watch his little butt (or mouth) every SECOND, he needs to be in a place where he can't get in trouble, even if that means he is crated more than you want right now. Think of the times when he is out of the crate and in a chew-danger area as 100 percent watch time.

Teaching him what to chew is SO much easier than unteaching bad habits.

While you're working on this, make sure the stuff he is allowed to chew is wicked great: rawhides probably won't be interesting enough. Bully sticks, smellier the better, good butcher bones, etc.

By the way, one thing that helps me that I don't often see mentioned (and maybe because I'm a complete nut) is that I use a schedule for Simon (and Zelda before him), a written schedule – of his crate times. I do this for several reasons. One, I work at home and need to make sure that I can balance my productivity with his needs. It might be similar to having small children and puppy. Two, it gives me sort of the mental on/off I need to concentrate on his training when he IS out. Three, it gives our household day a structure, which is good for not just the puppy.

It might not work for everyone, but it works for us as we juggle priorities. It seems to agree with Simon

[tangokor]

I appreciate allt he advice given. I'm really not trying to make excuses, just trying to explain my situation. Which is really just EXHAUSTION! I am a single mom juggling 2 kids, dog and the house. If I only let him out of his crate when I could watch him 100% he would never leave his crate. He's in it it while I work. He's in it when he sleeps and in it when I have to leave the house. My backyard is completely safe for him and that's where he plays alot of the time. Although he can now figure out how to open the gate which is another issue. I do not have a garage to put an additional crate in.

The kids have been taught to put away their things (they are 7 &10) and not leave them where the do can get to them, but it's not always just their things. It's furniture, it's things that I do not have a place for, it's pretty much everything. If it's somewhere where I think he can't get it, he finds a way to get it. The bedroom doors stay closed at all times but there are times he gets in there and gets into trouble too.

All this advice is great but I do think I'm in over my head and just can't manage it all. I have been trying to give it 100% and do everything that has been suggested. I really have. The last thing I want is him harming the kids. I just can't keep up w/ him.

The breeder is Kaleonhae's in OH.

[sharronhurlbut]

Maybe its just not a good breed fit with your family?
Is that what I am reading…because there is no shame in admitting the breed is just not working for you.

[tanza]

Sounds to me like you are overwhelmed with the puppy and maybe this was not the best time to bring a new addition into the house. I always tell people it is like having another baby and people need to make sure they really have the time to devote to raising another member of the family. Have you spoken with the breeder? And considered returning him to his breeder?

[listeme]

I so empathize with the exhaustion! And not having another adult to bounce ideas off of would only make it harder.

So, assuming you don't want to give up yet*, what about some solutions that are not optimal? Brainstorming wackily here: what about crating him and setting the timer for 15 minutes all evening after work – every time the timer goes off, you or one of the kids takes him out for five minutes and runs in the backyard with him or does a training session or the like? I'm talking really short sessions but frequent so that he's interacting all evening, but safe most of the time.

What about having the kids "hide" treats in the backyard and then sending him out to find them? Have the kids watch tv with him in his crate and bring him out for commercials. Have everyone take 2 minute turns at being "in charge" of him, passing him on to the next.

I guess I'm trying to come up with ways to keep him involved but mostly contained while he's in this stage.

*Rehoming him is not really giving up; he's at a good age to find a place. But I know that it's more complicated than that in families.