I was a little pre-occupied earlier today, and Doodle displayed her displeasure at my constant delays... how? She got up on the sofa and did this little prancing-dancing thing. Like she was saying, "haha, look at me misbehaving". LOL oh yeah.... if that is her "breaking bad", I'm in trouble, she's got my heart!
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The test my vet did initially back in February found no glucose in his urine.
No, I didn't literally FILL a kong with peanut butter! It was 2 or 3 knife-fulls with a couple of small treats.
Since the last test, I've been giving him about 1000 ml of water every day. He doesn't always drink that much, but he's able to get at least that much. He hasn't peed in his kennel once, he's not pitching fits at night, he's a lot more relaxed and he's peeing a more significant amount when we take him out. And winter's over. I don't think that's a coincidence. I'll still try to get some glucose strips to monitor the situation, but I'm chalking this up to a seasonal thing. When he goes to get his stitches taken out from his leg later this week, I'm going to talk to them about anti-depressants or something for next winter.
Thanks for all your help!
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Well, two variables changed at once right? The season turned, and you limited his water. So to know which one helped you might want to offer him unlimited water again during the nice weather, and see if the episodes come back.
I think it is possible that this is a behavior disorder, but I would be much more inclined to guess that is a form of dog OCD with the water drinking, than something having to do with the weather. I have never heard of dog seasonal disorder, and I don't think that they treat SD in humans with antidepressants, but with melatonin? Someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But, I think before I pursued an antidepressant, I would want to consult with a veterinary behaviorist. Also, the intent with dog anti-depressants is to use behavioral modification while treating, so the dog can be weaned off the drug in time. You probably already know this, but I feel it is worth stating. It sounds like you are already doing some effective behavior mod, and that is a good thing.
I am glad that your vet did check for glucose, my faith is restored
And yes, it is important that every Basenji owner test month for glucose in the urine. I found them on Amazon.com under Bayer Diastix for $13.99 for 50 strips. -
I'm glad it's clearing up for you.
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We took him in for his yearly exam last February, had him checked for bladder issues, diabetes, Fanconi's, etc. and everything was negative, so it was determined to be a behavioral issue. We made a few changes- not letting him on the couch anymore and supervising him more closely in the house, closing off certain rooms. By the time spring rolled around, his mood was better and the urinating stopped (except for a few instances, which were truly accidental; I can't blame him for that.)
All of a sudden, he’s urinating in his kennel and in places around the house on a daily basis (some days more than once.) We’ve tried regimenting his water intake- giving him water, then taking him outside 20-45 minutes later when he should be ready to go. Some days this works, some days not. He doesn’t seem to indicate when he has to go about half the time now, by going to the door, which wasn’t a problem before.
Don't know if you still have Tana or still have a problem but I recently found this forum and was reading old threads. I thought that in case you still get email notification on this, I'd comment for you.
I can't believe how much this sounds like Cushing's disease that my previous dog (dalmation mix) died from. If you're still having his urination problems, and he's negative for Fanconi's, kidney failure and diabetes, the next test should be for Cushings. It is basically either an adrenal gland or pituitary gland carcinoma that causes increased cortisol and ADH secretion. You would notice both increased urination, "forgetting housetraining" but not like he was marking, increased thirst and shape change. Cushing's dogs get very wan, thin faces and start getting large in their torso and abdomen. Additionally, due to the increased cortisol, symptoms of arthritis and other chronic pain conditions actually will decrease or disappear. Once they have Cushing's, they can be placed on medication to control the symptoms. My vet told us that progression of the cancer is about 2-3 years unless you treat for cancer. We were told the adrenal gland form is treatable (although not a great success rate) and can be biopsied, while the pituitary form can't be biopsied (the pituitary is in the center of the two cerebral hemispheres of the brain) and isn't treatable. With the medication our 11 year old dalmation got two more good years and until about 4-5 months before he died, the urination problems were solved. We did have to keep increasing his dosage and monitoring him with the vet.
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Very interesting, PhocoenaGirl. I looked up the other symptoms of Cushing's (on this site) and they specifically said excessive thirst/urination, increased appetite, weight gain around the belly (more due to the abdominal muscles getting weaker than actual weight gain- they just look more "pot-bellied"), lethargy, panting, losing/thinning fur on the torso and frequent skin infections.
Obviously, he has the thirst and urination issue. He's always had a healthy appetite, and he's always been a bit more lazy than other basenji's. But over this past summer, there were a few times when he'd be panting more than usual. I don't know about other basenji's, but Tana's not a panter, and the few times he has panted a lot, it was obvious that it was hot and he'd exerted himself recently. Cooling off and a drink helped, but this summer was relatively mild compared to past summer and still, there were a few times he was panting, out of the blue. I have noticed his fur thinning a little on his sides. I noticed it about 6 months ago, so I attributed it to his summer coat, but now I'm noticing it's not getting as thick as it usually does this time of year. And the frequent skin infections (another website also said "thin skin") also worries me because suddenly this year, he's been getting callouses on his elbows, some of which look a little raw. We really do keep him out of the kennel as much as we possibly can, but I thought maybe he's just been in there more because my boyfriend and I have been working more, so maybe s was in there more. But now I'm thinking that's what this is.
Well, I'm glad we maybe have something to go on. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow and see if he was tested for Cushings at his check-up back in February. If this is Cushings, could anyone give me an idea of the cost of the drugs they use to treat this? That article I linked to seems to say they can treat it surgically or just with medicine.
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Another thing you may want to have him tested for is hypothyroidism. Though that does not explain the excess water drinking, the signs can include lethargy, weight gain, and skin problems.
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And if Cushings (just like if it was Fanconi), many times they had thyroid problems on top of the main problem.
Have you been strip testing him, even though he was negative for Fanconi when he was checked before?
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I admire your working to get to the physical issue your dog has.
I really to think its medical, and not all "in his head".
good luck and keep us posted. -
Well, I left a message at the vet's office just after posting that at 12:30am on Saturday. They called me back on Saturday afternoon and said Cushing's was not included in the tests they had run before, and advised I could drop off a urine sample anytime this week. I was planning to wait until this Friday, as I have the day off and could take Tana out and get that potent first pee of the morning :rolleyes:
Monday, I went to work at 6:30am and my boyfriend called at 7:30, said he had taken Tana out, discovered he'd pooped in his kennel over night. He took him outside, and brought him back in. He had him leashed in the house while he cleaned the kennel and Tana proceeded to poop and pee on the floor, and appeared to be straining to pee. I immediately called the vet's office, left a message, as they didn't open until 9:00. They called me at about 8:30, said that they were concerned that maybe he had a blockage and would need to be catheterized. So, I rushed home, grabbed the dog, ran him over to the vet's office. They looked at him and determined there was no blockage. They took another urine sample to test for UTI and a preliminary test for Cushing's (a urine cortisol:creatinine ratio test.) The UTI test they did in-house and it was negative. The sent the UCCR to an outside lab.
Today, there was a message from the vet's office. It was from the head vet himself, so I immediately knew they found something. They did find elevated levels of cortisol in his system and they want to do the full blood work to further determine what's going on.
I think high cortisol can just mean he has a thyroid problem, right? I found out that my co-worker's late dog had Cushing's. I'm concerned because she said it got expensive. Not the medicine necessarily, but you have to consistently get lab tests done to monitor their levels. I'm not sure if the same kinds of tests are done with thyroid problems or not.
My boyfriend and I are not the kind of people who break up with animals- we both grew up with pets and never did our families put one down because they became inconvenient. Neither of our families had a lot of money, but we took care of our pets through all sorts of health problems and keeping them alive and comfortable until it as no longer humane to do so was how we were raised. It's really breaking my heart right now that I'm not sure I can do the same for our dog. I'm trying not to dwell on it too much until we know what's wrong and hear from the vet what the course of treatment will be and cost, but I think I'm going to be a wreck until that happens.
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Harley (my dalmation mix) who had Cushings, I had when I was in high school so I didn't actually pay for the medication but I do remember that about every 2-3 months he had a check up with blood testing. I will contact my parents (who paid for all that back then) and find out what the costs were for Harley's meds and testing so in case Tana has Cushings, you can have an idea of cost.
Just as an FYI, Harley was diagnosed when he was 10 and he lived pretty happily until about 2 months before he died at 12. He actually died from a GI cancer which probably wasn't related to the Cushings so if Tana has the disease, he has several years of happy life ahead with treatment and it certainly isn't a death sentence. Hopefully, Tana likes your vet though because I remember that Harley went a lot - like every 2-3 months to get blood testing done to make sure the dosage was correct.
I agree with a couple other posters too that you might want to have some thyroid testing done as well if the Cushings test is negative.
Don't make yourself a wreck over this. Just waiting can be tough but go hug Tana and he will always make you feel better. Don't forget he knows you love him no matter what winds up happening.
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My previous beastie had a thyroid problem and it took several trips to the vet to figure it out. So I understand what you are going through. Hang in there and don't throw in the towel yet – an answer will come.
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So we got the confirmation this weekend that Tana has Cushing's.
The vet prescribed a medication called Trilostane, which is supposed to not have the nasty side effects (like, oh, death) that the other drug, Lysodren, has. Only catch is that it's hard to get in the US- it's not approved by the FDA and it's not exactly illegal, but you have to order it through special pharmacies and they get it from Europe. It will be about $73/month. It's expensive for us, but not horrible. I'm probably going to get a second job (I work just under 40 hours a week, but over the course of 4 days, so I have an extra day anyway) to supplement the costs a little. I found another message board for people with dogs who have Cushings, http://www.caninecushings.net/ to get some more specialized advice if I need it.
Thanks for all the advice and support- we would have just gone on not knowing what was wrong with him, assuming it was just behavioral or old age.
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Good luck in the future. Whatever happens, I know you have the best interests of everyone at heart.
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I'm glad you finally have confirmation of what troubling your boy. I checked with my parents and our vet had Harley on Lysodren (wasn't aware at that time of any other drug) and they were paying about $55 a month for it. The biggest expense for them was the vet visits and blood draws every 2 months, which our vet wanted to make sure that the dosage was correct and not overly limiting cortisol output. Because of the potential for cortisol levels to drop like crazy and other nasty, possibly fatal side effects, our vet wanted to keep tabs on the bloodwork often.
Hopefully the new drug your dog will be on, although a bit more expensive, won't require so many vet visits and blood draws to check the status. If you want to know anything else or to keep tabs as you go along, please post that you want to contact me via email and I am sure the forum admin can help us figure out contact info.
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So, an update. He's been on medication (trilostane- we found a less expensive pharmacy, so it's only $40/month) and his cortisol levels have gone down, but he's still having symptoms. His fur and skin is very thin. He's drinking and urinating a lot. We'll take him outside every 45-60 minutes, he'll pee a little bit; then you bring him back inside and in 10 minutes, he pees twice as much on the floor without any indication that he needs to go out again. We stop giving him fluids in the evening and take him out at least two times after then. Somehow, overnight, he'll pee in his kennel again. He drinks it (yuck!) and then just keeps peeing over and over again until morning. We got him one of these Ugodog things in hopes that he'll use it, but no luck. We just bought a new kennel that the Ugodog will fit inside of so that he'll use it in there and not be able to "clean up", so that at least it will break the cycle. I've talked to our vet and he just suggest wants to run more tests; I can afford the medicine he needs and the occasional blood test to monitor his cortisol levels, but we're not working with an endless supply of money, here.
Today, I took him out of his kennel and he has a quarter-sized spot on his side that's completely bare. No fur, but it's not quite raw (moist) looking yet. I gave him a bath to clean him off and put neosporin on the sores.
We're at the point where we're thinking of re-homing him in the near future. We talked to our friends who we got him from about what they thought. The breeder they got him from was, from their description, running what was essentially a puppy mill, or at least just not good conditions. Our friends admit they were young and naive when they got him, but don't want to see him go back to her (and she's moved a few times since then, so it would be hard to track her down.)
I just feel like we're running out of options. I want to find out what's wrong with him, but even if we do, my fiance and I both work 8 hours a day and we live in a condo. While he could get better for awhile, eventually he's going to need to be in a home where he's out of the kennel for more time and has someone to let him outside more often.
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lets think about some basic things that are not related to Cushings but may help quality of life.
1 - on the bare spots on the skin - go to Target, Walmart etc and in the health food suppliment section get some liquid E to rub into the bare spots (if they only have a cream find the one that has the most E - or you can get E liquid capsules and break them open - it will stimulate hair growth.
2 - Have to tried a Belly Band when he is out of the crate? A Belly Band is about 4-6 inches wide and velcroes around the back to contain 'parts'. You actually put a 'pad' in the area - so 1 it absorbs urine and IF there is some 'habit' part of the frequent urination - they get to live with it. Probably won't work in the crate verywell but will help a lot when he is loose in thehouse.
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Thanks for the advice- I should rub the vitamin E right on there? Giving him the pill orally won't help?
I haven't tried the belly band. I'll keep it in mind, though.
The Ugodog in the kennel with him has been helpful. He, nor our house, no longer reek of urine, and that's made a difference for all of us.
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Does Tana have a pituatary tumor which is inoperable or does he have an adrenal tumor? Some adrenal tumors are operable and after removal the dogs can recover and return to normal cortisol production. You may have to seek a specialist but it may be worth looking into.
