thank you Ivoss
"Yes, Avongara Black Opal of Brushy Run and Avongara Pepe of Brushy Run are Fula Blacks without the red breech."
I disagree. Firstly -fula black is a misnomer when using it with regards to the Avongaras as they do not have a speck of Fula blood in them. This term, in my opinion, should never be used when describing anything to do with the Avongaras as we could be talking about completely different genes. Which is why we (the breed fancy) should bring our terminology into 2010.
I contacted Bev regarding this discussion as I was concerned about misinformation re: her dogs when we (she) does not know for certainty WHAT her dogs are exactly in relations to color. I know it is her goal to get all dogs involved DNA tested though I am not sure if there is a definitive test should the parents be recessive reds (to mean that they are in fact black and white but have a gene or modifier that "turns off" the black color; think yellow Labradors - they are genetically black dogs but phenotypically yellow in color) or they (the parents) carry the true recessive black genes (how geneticists define it, not the basenji fancy) which is said to be the rarest and the most recessive allele in the Agouti (A) series and NOT a tri color. Or perhaps they are in fact what the fancy calls fula blacks - pheno black/white with possible/eventual bleeding but genetically tri color.
Unless and until they are DNA tested, or start to bleed through or produce their color we do not know for certainty what they are and in my opinion we should not be labeling them as anything at this time - esp. in light of the fact that they do NOT go back to Fula and do not carry the same genes that can produce the fula blacks, tris and/or barred tris of which we speak and are somewhat familiar. If anyone is to label them it should be Bev that does it as they are her dogs, her pedigrees, et al.
Bev did ask that I attach a picture of her 2 1/2 year old full Avongara black and white out of two reds Pepe, Opals brother. See below in another post. What a lovely outline!
Fula Black is a misnomer in our breed period. It is a term that is used in the breed to describe dogs that appear black at birth and didn't have a black parent and maybe is being used to describe what is two different genetics even within the domestic genepool.
Bev's blacks cannot be from recessive red hiding dominant black. Their sire is a brindle therefore cannot be a recessive red and is obviously not black. Their dam had a tri dam and her sire's parents were both brindle so though Glory could be a "recessive red" the only color it could be hiding is brindle not black. Not only that just like the lines that carry "fula black", Glory's dam is a barred tri and Grease has produced barred tris/trindles. There is no reason to think that the genes in the Avongaras are anything different from what is already known to exist in the basenji genepool.
Thank you for your further clarification and I must say I hadn't thought it through when viewing the links of Avongaras. The points you raise are very valid.
I would particularly like to be informed of the results should Bev have DNA tests done in the future. Would that be possibly borne in mind? For no reason apart from my devoted and lifelong interest in Basenjis. The advent of these 'new' Africans has raised a number of interesting questions.
What a beautiful dog Pepe is nd as you say a lovely outline. Thank you for posting the picture.
Unless and until they are DNA tested, or start to bleed through or produce their color we do not know for certainty what they are and in my opinion we should not be labeling them as anything at this time - esp. in light of the fact that they do NOT go back to Fula and do not carry the same genes that can produce the fula blacks, tris and/or barred tris of which we speak and are somewhat familiar.
The above statement is NOT true. The do carry the genes that produce barred tris.
Avongara Nafuu of Brushy Run, the granddam of the recessive blacks in question, is a barred tri, http://www.basenji.org/african/Nafuu.htm
Avongara Cole of Brushy Run, from a different litter with the same sire as the recessive blacks, is a barred trindle, http://www.basenji.org/african/Cole.htm
Sadly Lisa we really do not know enough about the genes in question to boldly state they equivocally ARE the same genes. Some would argue (and still do) that the Avongaras are not purebred so certainly not of the same ilk as Fula. (No, not me!)
Yes, we can presume they are the same based on what we do know but that is all. Or certainly as far as I would be willing to go.
I wonder though, since brindle is a patten and not a color would it be affected by the genes modifying/making recessive reds? A question I need to ask a geneticist.
Brindle is a mutation of the gene that causes dominant black as stated in the link that I posted to the Schmutz site. "All of the following dog breeds are black, brown or grey because of KB and could be tested for homozygosity. Both the brindle mutation and the ky allele are recessive to KB. Distinguishing these two recessive alleles with a "simple" DNA test is not yet possible since the brindle mutation is a complex mutation."
Recessive Reds cannot produce black hairs so cannot be brindle.
The genetic research done by the canine genome project supports that phenotypically similar traits found in different breeds are most often caused by the same genes. In this case we have phenotypically similar traits in the same breed, so though without DNA testing it can't be definitively proven, it is more likely than not that they are the same genes. They definately behave the same, lines with barred tris produced recessive blacks in both the pre-Avongara cases and now in the Avongara one.
What does Fula mean? And what is the difference between fula black and the regular black basenjis you see?
I heard black was a dominant gene along with brindle. is this not true? Because I thought red was most common (dominant) then i wasnt sure really what after that.
Can anyone explain in depth how genes are in basenjis and what creates certain colors and also what color, of all them available, is most dominant to least dominant. Thank you so much!
In dogs there are two types of black. Dominant black, the most common black in basenjis, and recessive black, this black has not been proven to exist but is suspected to be in the basenji gene pool. Dominant black is inherited at the K locus along with brindle, the third gene at this locus is for neither black nor brindle so that the A locus becomes primarily responsible for the color seen. At the A locus there is red, tri, and recessive black. There also seems to be modifiers that act on the tri gene to produce tris with caps, tris with saddles, and tris with no pips. The term "fula" black is used to describe a dog that appears black and white at birth with no black parent. Some of these dogs develop tan as they age and are really tris without pips and some stay black and may be recessive blacks. These dogs come from lines that produce barred or "fula" tris.
ok. Im not really getting the A or K thing but I get the black and the fula thing. That makes alot of sense. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me 
i was very curious
There is not just one gene location that controls color there a many locations that control different aspects of color. The different locations have have been assigned letter designations to make talking about them easier. K is the letter for the location of the black, brindle, and neither alleles. A is the letter for the location of the Agouti (wolf color), sable (basenji red), tri, and recessive black alleles. D is the letter for the location of the dilution, not dilute alleles. E is the letter for the location for the masking, normal black extension, no black extension alleles. There are many others for things like ticking, graying, etc.
o ok. So how do you go about using the letters? like what do you do with them to help you relate to basenjis?
This website give a pretty good overview of Canine Coat Color Genetics with pictures.
Ivos you will reply soon.I know how to inherit the colors.
As I've said before, Fula black is a misnomer. There were no blacks in Fula's line the correct term is 'Fula Tri'. From Fula's descendants tri-colours were born without melon pips and that is the correct definition of a Fula Tri. This is not my opinion for the term was invented by Veronica Tudor Williams. It is used differently I've discovered in the USA to describe the recessive black.
I always look on Ivoss as our expert on inheritance and genetics!
I have heard from people that met some "fula blacks" descended down from Fula that apparently did not bleed tan in their coats and did indeed appear to be black and white. Those same people said that the same lines would also produce the pipless tris with the tan britches and on the backs of the ears. This is probably why in the US "fula tri" refers to barred tris with pips that seem to be producers of "fula blacks" which range from pipless tris with various amounts of tan to what appear to be recessive blacks.
There is now a test for recessive black so perhaps sometime in the future we will be able to better sort out what exactly we have genetically in basenjis and perhaps come up with some more clear terminology.
Ivoss - interesting about the people who did know of Fula 'whatevers' that didn't have tan - I'd be interested if you have any other information on their breeding.
When I get round to posting pictures I'll post one of my 'Fula' who people insisted was a black and white although I knew he had none in his background. You may be interested,
It's good to know that there is now a test for recessive black. My 'The Inheritance of Coat Colour in Dogs' by Little is obviously now well outdated.
Hello!
Once upon a time I was not.But I know how to inherit the color.
http://www.kanibaru.com/2002pups.html
Sire Wazazi Dazzling Impact DD kk a^ya, Dd kk a^ya
Dam Wazazi Heavenly Vision DD kk a^ya, Dd kk a^ya
**Kanibaru Fula Love fula black recesiv
**
DDkka****a
Ddkka****a
