Cesar Milan in the UK - March 2010

[lvoss]

For anyone looking for good resources on dog communication, I would highly recommend Turid Rugaas's Calming Signals and Sarah Kalnaj's The Language of Dogs. Once you really start understanding dog body language the difference in training methods becomes readily visible in the stress behaviors you begin to observe.

For those working in rescue Sarah Kalnaj also has a video titled Am I Safe?

I really like Sarah Kalnaj's videos because they have lots of footage of lots of dogs. Her seminars are also excellent if there is one in your area, I would highly recommend it. I believe she is currently touring with Sophia Yin another excellent animal behaviorist.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@tanza:

In the US there is no such thing at a pet store that would have puppies from a responsible breeder, period. NO responsible breeder sells puppies to a pet store

Really? So out of the (most likely) thousands of pet-stores in the US not ONE could be run by a kind honest person?
I can understand staying away from chain/branch stores etc, but private owned is one big mixed bag of people.

I was visiting Canada (family) some 4 years back, and we went to a private owned store, there the owner even had an approval diploma/certificate from the animal-rights org.
He sold his own puppies in the store (only if he had any, he never had it as a goal) which were German Shepards (I remember because there was one left, and it was SO cute), also he adopted/helped unwanted puppies/cats etc to sell in the store which he worked together with the local animal shelter in doing, as well having an "I need a home" board were people could hang up ads.

[lvoss]

In Sacramento, a couple of years ago, there was a news story about one of the "family owned" petstores. It made the news because the police had been called to investigate a foul odor on the property. They found the bodies of over 20 puppies behind the building. They had a parvo outbreak and had just dumped the dead and dying back there.

About 10 years ago there was a story about another private owned store where the owner sold only dogs she bred. In 3 years she had produced over 20 severely dysplastic Golden Retriever puppies. Even after she was informed of the first diagnosed as having no hip sockets at 6 months old, she continued to breed the parents and sell the puppies.

So around here the "family owned" or "local store" is far more likely to have substandard conditions than the chain stores.

The definition of responsible breeder used here in the US includes screening homes, staying in touch with owners to help when there are questions, and willingness to take back the puppy at any time for any reason, these criteria cannot be met by someone who just turns their pups over for sale in a commercial outlet.

[tanza]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Really? So out of the (most likely) thousands of pet-stores in the US not ONE could be run by a kind honest person?
I can understand staying away from chain/branch stores etc, but private owned is one big mixed bag of people.

I was visiting Canada (family) some 4 years back, and we went to a private owned store, there the owner even had an approval diploma/certificate from the animal-rights org.
He sold his own puppies in the store (only if he had any, he never had it as a goal) which were German Shepards (I remember because there was one left, and it was SO cute), also he adopted/helped unwanted puppies/cats etc to sell in the store which he worked together with the local animal shelter in doing, as well having an "I need a home" board were people could hang up ads.

Exactly, there is NOT one run by a kind honest person that is responsible… maybe the person running the store might think they are getting pups from a responsible person, truth be told, there is not ONE responsible breeder that would ever sell their puppies to any type of pet store.

Having a "diploma/certificate" from some organization is no better then saying you have a USDA license to breeding and sell... worth nothing more then the paper it is written on... and if he is selling his own puppies, is he doing all the necessary health testing, especially critical on German Shepards with all their genetic problems.

[NerdyDogOwner]

wow, I am a bit shocked over how you guys put everyone under the same roof. So lets say you, yourself a loving Basenji owner start a petstore, and decide to sell Basenjis.
You happen to know personally a few breeders, included yourself…but I guess that must mean your store is run buy an irresponsible person (you), and your puppies must be from an horrible evil breeders (even if you talk to them daily and know them personally for years) because we all know this has to be the case...
Despite your love, passion and dedication to give the puppies a good home.

I have heard of American skepticism, and just how close minded many are, just never thought it to be true. Thanks for the demonstration...

You guys just can't believe someone fighting the good fight, and running a clean business? How sad. Well, it's a good thing you guys have that attitude and only support clean businesses like Wall-Mart instead of the little guy...oh wait....ah well, child labor ain't THAT bad...

[lvoss]

Stores do not care what homes puppies go into they care about a person's ability to pay the purchase price and that is all. Stores do not screen homes, stores do not make follow up calls and emails, stores do not take back dogs even a decade later because their owners can not care for them. Stores have one function to make a profit. In order to do that, they cannot put the care into puppies that is necessary to meet the definition of responsible.

So you are right if a breeder decided to open up a store front to sell their puppies and those of their friends to anyone who had the money to pay which is the function of a store, I would consider them irresponsible.

And you can go to petfinder and search the dogs and cats needing homes to see the reason why we feel this way. There is a real problem with irresponsible ownership as well as irresponsible breeding and pet stores support the irresponsible owner with more money than sense.

[EskiLovr]

I can do and do gladly support "the little guy" in my community. That having been said, the minute someone decides to sell animals from a storefront, they've lost my business, and here is why. A storefront has overhead, and staff, and insurance and still needs to make a profit. That is the purpose of a business, to make a profit. When you start selling animals for PROFIT, things start getting a little out of control. You have the pressure to cut corners on things like vet care, testing, etc so you can keep costs down. You have the tendency to let animals go to someone who can 'afford the price' instead of being sure that the best home is found. Companion animals are not a product to be bought and sold, they are living, breathing, feeling creatures with needs that the depend on us to provide for.

[Quercus]

@EskiLovr:

I can do and do gladly support "the little guy" in my community. That having been said, the minute someone decides to sell animals from a storefront, they've lost my business, and here is why. A storefront has overhead, and staff, and insurance and still needs to make a profit. That is the purpose of a business, to make a profit. When you start selling animals for PROFIT, things start getting a little out of control. You have the pressure to cut corners on things like vet care, testing, etc so you can keep costs down. You have the tendency to let animals go to someone who can 'afford the price' instead of being sure that the best home is found. Companion animals are not a product to be bought and sold, they are living, breathing, feeling creatures with needs that the depend on us to provide for.

This couldn't be said any better!!!!

[NerdyDogOwner]

@lvoss:

Stores do not care what homes puppies go into they care about a person's ability to pay the purchase price and that is all. Stores do not screen homes, stores do not make follow up calls and emails, stores do not take back dogs even a decade later because their owners can not care for them. Stores have one function to make a profit. In order to do that, they cannot put the care into puppies that is necessary to meet the definition of responsible.

So you are right if a breeder decided to open up a store front to sell their puppies and those of their friends to anyone who had the money to pay which is the function of a store, I would consider them irresponsible.

And you can go to petfinder and search the dogs and cats needing homes to see the reason why we feel this way. There is a real problem with irresponsible ownership as well as irresponsible breeding and pet stores support the irresponsible owner with more money than sense.

I just can't grasp that attitude of "all private stores are evil, and don't care", even though you do not know the owner at all.

When I was a kid, a neighbor ran a pet store in his garage, and people who had a puppy or two they didn't manage to sell were allowed to have them in the store during the day, almost like a daycare, in hopes to give it a home. But I guess that was EVIL wasn't it?

Having a store because you love dogs, and having once in a while a puppy from a breeder you personally know is hardly irresponsible in my book. I guess it would be better to put the animal to sleep then instead of trying to give it a home?

You really hate people THAT much you judge all and everyone as the same? Dear lord…

Breeder are stores in a sense, they sell from home instead of a rented building. I am 100% sure there are "horror stories" of breeders doing "evil" as well. Puppy Mills are essentially breeders too....(note I am NOT condoning Puppy mills).

Ah well, I can see that this will go nowhere, and we have gone WAY off-topic.

I hope you go home to the people that produce all your items you buy for your dogs, you never know what they are up too after all...irresponsible people are lurking everywhere....

@EskiLovr:

I can do and do gladly support "the little guy" in my community. That having been said, the minute someone decides to sell animals from a storefront, they've lost my business, and here is why. A storefront has overhead, and staff, and insurance and still needs to make a profit. That is the purpose of a business, to make a profit. When you start selling animals for PROFIT, things start getting a little out of control. You have the pressure to cut corners on things like vet care, testing, etc so you can keep costs down. You have the tendency to let animals go to someone who can 'afford the price' instead of being sure that the best home is found. Companion animals are not a product to be bought and sold, they are living, breathing, feeling creatures with needs that the depend on us to provide for.

What store doesn't want to make a profit? So your pet-store doesn't even sell fish, or small birds?
Anyways, I am talking about someone running a private store who want's to help give puppies a home, NOT having them in the store as a regular stock item.

[EskiLovr]

@NerdyDogOwner:

I just can't grasp that attitude of "all private stores are evil, and don't care", even though you do not know the owner at all.

When I was a kid, a neighbor ran a pet store in his garage, and people who had a puppy or two they didn't manage to sell were allowed to have them in the store during the day, almost like a daycare, in hopes to give it a home. But I guess that was EVIL wasn't it?

Having a store because you love dogs, and having once in a while a puppy from a breeder you personally know is hardly irresponsible in my book. I guess it would be better to put the animal to sleep then instead of trying to give it a home?

You really hate people THAT much you judge all and everyone as the same? Dear lord…

Breeder are stores in a sense, they sell from home instead of a rented building. I am 100% sure there are "horror stories" of breeders doing "evil" as well. Puppy Mills are essentially breeders too....(note I am NOT condoning Puppy mills).

Ah well, I can see that this will go nowhere, and we have gone WAY off-topic.

I hope you go home to the people that produce all your items you buy for your dogs, you never know what they are up too after all...irresponsible people are lurking everywhere....

You are missing my point. Dogs aren't PRODUCTS. That is my point.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@EskiLovr:

You are missing my point. Dogs aren't PRODUCTS. That is my point.

Nope, I got yours. You guys were just faster than me when I was writing my post. Added a quote to whom I was talking to now. :p

I have been talking about someone who takes in a dog to get it a home.
And if I recall correctly I remember someone here in the forums does indeed run a store and had a puppy who he took care of, and found it a home while keeping it in his store during the day…?

[Basenjimamma]

The way I understand it is this.

A responsible breeder makes sure by way of having potential buyers visit their kennel(pups and adults) on site and by interviewing of sorts the new potential petowner to make sure of a good to perfect fit for the dog and person.

If you are in a store environment, odds are the person coming in looking for a pet, will walk out with one that day, no visiting to make sure this is what you want/should have, nor does the "breeder" have the opportunity to refuse a person not fit for the breed or breeder( I don't mean that in a bad way, but sometimes I can see certain people not being fit for the breed, so therefor not fit for the breeder either). It becomes more of an instant love thing as supposed to an educated purchase.
In Europe I don't think the problem is a s huge as it is here. People here will go to the mall for a sweater and come home with a puppy, because it was cute, not thinking twice of the fact that their apartment building doesn't allow animals, or it will cost X amount to have the pet vetted and fed, or it will grow up and not be cute anymore, but maybe large and a lot of work to take care of..
Petstores, puppymills and BYB's have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths..thank them for this, not the responsible breeders for being skeptical.

I hope what I am saying makes sense, I know what I am trying to say..just don't know how to word it correctly.

[tanza]

Responsible breeders to NOT expect to make money selling puppies. Responsible breeders breed to make the breed better in health, conformation, temperament. Responsible breeders breed to enhance their idea of the perfect dog, hence the health testing that is done and the careful consideration in who they breed… With the pups they don't keep, the most important thing is the home where the pup is placed. Responsible breeders do not look at breeding as a business, but a hobby.

Pet Stores buy from people that are in it for a profit and only a profit, not in it for the best interest of the breed.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@Basenjimamma:

In Europe I don't think the problem is a s huge as it is here. People here will go to the mall for a sweater and come home with a puppy, because it was cute, not thinking twice of the fact that their apartment building doesn't allow animals, or it will cost X amount to have the pet vetted and fed, or it will grow up and not be cute anymore, but maybe large and a lot of work to take care of..
Petstores, puppymills and BYB's have left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths..thank them for this, not the responsible breeders for being skeptical.

I hoep what I am saying makes sense, I know what I am trying to say..just don't know how to word it correctly.

Okay, I had no idea it was THAT easy to walk in a get a dog.

I had to write an application, like applying for a job, and the store (or breeder in my case) has to accept me as an owner to the pet. I also have to sign a contract.

Odd that US has such strict rules in buying guns with applications and long waiting times, but a life can be bought without a blink of an eye… :eek:

[lvoss]

@NerdyDogOwner:

What store doesn't want to make a profit?

And this statement is the key. Of course stores want to make a profit, they have to make a profit to stay in business. It is their function. If you go and read the thread on the costs of raising a litter, then you may have a better understanding of why we believe responsible breeding and petstores are incompatible. A huge difference between a responsible breeder and a store is that responsible breeders are not looking to make a profit as their primary goal and many barely break even. A responsible breeder is breeding to preserve their breed, they are breeding for themselves. In order to be a successful business ask Eskilvr pointed out the stores have to minimize cost in order to maximize profit. Those costs that are gettting minimized are directly connected to the care and well being of the animal.

I will also add that part of the no questions asked mentality of stores is that it interferes with their making a profit. The faster they can move those puppies out the door the better for them. Less cost to them for providing care for them so they get more profit from the sale. Since there are shelters and rescue organizations to clean up after them and there is no consequence to them if the dog stays in that home for 1 day or its entire life, they get the profit no matter what happens after that puppy leaves their store.

[tanza]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Breeder are stores in a sense, they sell from home instead of a rented building. I am 100% sure there are "horror stories" of breeders doing "evil" as well. Puppy Mills are essentially breeders too….(note I am NOT condoning Puppy mills).

Exactly right… those are "for profit" breeders and are not responsible, Puppy Mills however do sell to pet stores, BYB (Back Yard Breeders) sell over the internet, first one with the "dollars" gets the puppy... Ship/pick up... all the same... has nothing to do with education of the puppy buyer about the breed, is this really the right breed for their lifestyle, etc... Hence... Rescue is over run to "throw" away pets.

[renaultf1]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Odd that US has such strict rules in buying guns with applications and long waiting times, but a life can be bought without a blink of an eye… :eek:

Personally I don't find your analogy even remotely related, but here goes with some thoughts.

The US has waiting periods on gun purchases for a couple of reasons - one that a background check can be run - so a convicted felon can't legally buy a gun. Also, so that if someone is trying to purchase in the "heat of the moment" (say domestic argument), they have a cooling off period. Personally I don't think gun purchase is strict enough in the US (and I am all FOR being able to own guns).

Now, back to dogs…
Do I think someone should be able to just go in a petstore look at a dog and walk out with it the same day - NO; neither should they be able purchase one over the internet. Personally I think petstores (and internet sellers) in the US should be banned from selling live animals...period. Responsible breeders have websites, but that is so that prospective buyers can learn about the breed and make contact to ask questions and apply to purchase an animal - I don't think you are going to find a shopping cart (where you can add an animal) on a responsible breeder's website.

[AJs Human]

Pet stores in the US are overpriced anyway.

Can you even buy a gun at all in Europe?

[tanza]

@AJs:

Pet stores in the US are overpriced anyway.QUOTE]

For live pets/dogs? or in general? And for "live" pet prices they have to be to cover their costs and make money

[AJs Human]

For puppies. You can get a pup in great health, usually for a lower price, from a reputable breeder. Stores like to charge hundreds of dollars for mutts.