Because by then they should be hormonally mature even if not fully structurally mature. I don't read much research - I follow experience !
Ideally, not at all, but if they MUST be spayed, then let them grow up first.
Tilly's Fanconi Test Results
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It seems to me that not enough research is available on Fanconi, there seem to be so many questions - I did ask some questions on the basenji health site and some they could answer and some not. I've tried to find answers elsewhere but could find nothing. I wasn't aware until you've just told me that not all dogs do well on the protocol either. Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks. I must be dumb because I would have assumed that with no symptoms there could be no disease? Eg isn't it like saying someone has cancer when they have no growths, no symptoms etc.? Can I have your thoughts on that, Tanza?
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I had a b that couldn't handle the pills.
He died.
Living with fanconis is not a fun thing.
Preventing it should be the key. -
It seems to me that not enough research is available on Fanconi, there seem to be so many questions - I did ask some questions on the basenji health site and some they could answer and some not. I've tried to find answers elsewhere but could find nothing. I wasn't aware until you've just told me that not all dogs do well on the protocol either. Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks. I must be dumb because I would have assumed that with no symptoms there could be no disease? Eg isn't it like saying someone has cancer when they have no growths, no symptoms etc.? Can I have your thoughts on that, Tanza?
As far as doing well or not on the protocol, that is not very surprising to me… no different then why do some people beat cancer? Some just do well on the treatment, some do not. And it depends on the degree of the illness. I firmly believe that Fanconi is much like Cancer... and there are different degress of how the illness progresses. And then add in the fact of trying to shove pills down a dog... of course would add to how effective it is. It would IMO, be very stressful for the animal and that IMO would add to how effective the treatment is or is not...
Since catching Fanconi early is a key 99% of the time and it is caught by strip testing for spilling sugar in the urine, it is usually the owners that catch it before a Vet. And still in this day, many Vets don't have a clue what Fanconi is... during normal check ups, provide you take your dog yearly at least and have all tests done like complete blood work up with checking the urine, easy enough to miss it if there is really no remarkable changes noticed by the owners. I doubt that many do a complete work up once a year on their dogs.
And for those few dogs that were not showing any symptoms, it is very possible that they were not spilling sugar or it was not every day... so easy enough to miss unless you were stripping every single day... so maybe the degree of their illness was not as bad as others. Look at the number of people that find cancer or some other illness at an advance stage, but they had never felt sick? Entirely possible.... And I am sure that many would want to have more details on those few dogs that are/were of advance age... to study... if they are or not, I have no idea. In one case the dog was already deceased, but they have blood/DNA with Dr. Johnson and had it tested.
And now with the test.. there is never a reason to again produce a dog with Fanconi... so really it becomes a moot point, IMO
And the more dogs that are tested the more data we have, which to me is so very important...
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Yes, Pat your so right…never a reason to have a fanconis b again...unless you just DON'T care!!!
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patty - some of the reasons that this has been so difficult to work with - until the test - is that many who became symptomatic - did so at 5 or 6. Typically it seems the earlier they were drinking a lot and spilling sugar - the worse they did on the Protocal.
How many times at a vet visit do you bring in or do they take a urine sample? If you don't know that you are looking for something (and many vets are not familiar with this disease) you don't know what tests to run.
A general vet check doesnt' find fanconi any better than a MD visit will find a serious but not currently presenting issue.
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patty - some of the reasons that this has been so difficult to work with - until the test - is that many who became symptomatic - did so at 5 or 6. Typically it seems the earlier they were drinking a lot and spilling sugar - the worse they did on the Protocal.
How many times at a vet visit do you bring in or do they take a urine sample? If you don't know that you are looking for something (and many vets are not familiar with this disease) you don't know what tests to run.
A general vet check doesnt' find fanconi any better than a MD visit will find a serious but not currently presenting issue.
Exactly….
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Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks.
Because the very earliest symptoms are ones that would not be caught unless a blood gas test was run, it would not normally be caught. Blood gases is not a normal test and many vets don't have the equipment to run them. In fact, when we first got the DNA marker test some people who got back Probably Afflicted results ran blood gases just to see and saw that even though the dogs were not yet spilling the blood gases results showed signs that changes were taking place in kidney's ability to reabsorb nutrients.
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And now with the test.. there is never a reason to again produce a dog with Fanconi… so really it becomes a moot point, IMO
Pat, you know that I will agree with this…
but in fact, it isn't the case... the point isn't MOOT.After all, Tilly is only 18 months old...
which means that the litter was bred AFTER the Fanconi Linkage Test became available.
There were many Zande [UK] dogs tested that summer [2007] and many carriers… telling us that the mutant gene IS there...
if there were/are carriers, there is more than likely the disease.Tilly's breeder's were playing russian roulette by doing such a breeding,
without health-testing the parents.
Unfortunately, you and Tilly get to pay the price for their gambling.Best of luck to Tilly.. enjoy your years with her.
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Most vets don't know anything about fanconi to recognise it, back in the 80's my breeder gave me the current information at that time to alert the vet to the possibility, as I understand it if the vet doesn't recognise Fanconi the usual treatment they might try would actually make the situation worse, I am not very knowledgable on the subject, but firmly believe that we should be testing as many dogs as possible.
I know that it can be inherited, and when a dog comes back affected it may not be showing symptoms, it may not show them for many years, a bit like breast cancer where a number of the family may suffer and a person may carry the genes but not all develop it, or some not for years.
A lot of people were talking about Fanconi at WELKS and coming to their own conclusions about dogs that hadn't been tested, we will never know if they don't test. Although its sad that Tilly has come back affected at least they have got people talking about Fanconi again, and some more dogs are now being tested.
I believe that as well as being hereditary it can also be triggered by external influence one of which was antibiotics used after the expiry date, has anyone else heard of this?
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Tanza - my dogs are all subject to a routine veterinary check every year including blood, urine, heart, eyes, etc. (Generally, the only time most of them see a vet!) It's a practice carried on from the breeder whose affix I've inherited. Also whenever I get any scientific information particular to Basenjis I pass it on to him. It's true that many vets in the UK don't know about Fanconi Syndrome.
Another question for any to answer, please - do Fanconi carriers, affected etc drink more than 'normal' Basenjis. Is this a way it could be spotted earlier on? I ask because this might be a useful piece of advice topass on to interested parties
Moetmum - fairly recently Fanconi was caused in various dogs (not only Basenjis) by eating contaminated chews (I'm not sure what the contamination was, obviously some kind of poison. Dr Gonto gave us a list of things that cause Fanconi - probably some of the others know? -
Another question for any to answer, please - do Fanconi carriers, affected etc drink more than 'normal' Basenjis. Is this a way it could be spotted earlier on?
Increased drinking is a symptom of Fanconi but is not the earliest symptom. The earliest symptom that is the easiest for an owner to detect is spilling sugar in the urine. Since this symptom can be intermittent in the very early stages of the disease it is best to several days a month.
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Isn't the damage to the kidneys started, once the dogs show sign of increasing water drinking?
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Yes, and usually fairly significant by that time.
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Patty it is good to have all of the dogs tested annually but they could still develop Fanconi in the interim, if it developed a month or two later than your annual check and wasn't being monitored the damage would already be done by the next annual check, if you test at least you have a good indication, what have you got to lose?
There is a problem in the UK, I was shocked at the results that were emerging, I also thought the line my dogs came from was long lived, I sincerely hope that you are right that you don't have a problem, my two had good long healthy lives but there was still a problem in the line, as has previously been stated it has been like Russian Roulette. There are no records of what Basenjis have actually succumbed to, if vets are unaware how many are misdiagnosed? We have no way of knowing for sure. It isn't fair on the dogs or prospective owners to take that risk.
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And as already pointed out, when symptoms first start with Fanconi (spilling sugar) you may not see it every day. I remember when Jaadii started spilling… one day positive for spilling sugar in the urine, next 3 days nothing, next day a trace of sugar, then two more clear days... so easy to see in the beginning how it could be missed early on....
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I am going to take a guess that WELKS was a big show…
the thing is.. the Fanconi research has been going on for MANY YEARS.
The test has been available going on two years [will be in early July 2009].Since Fanconi is all over the globe, there isn't a good enough reason for UK breeders to not have begun testing. Sure, I know there is a great deal of expense shipping blood. I get that.
BUT, I have also lived with Fanconi. It is NOT pretty. If one can put the time into breeding a litter, there is absolutely NO reason NOT to fanconi test the parents with enough time to get back the results… PRIOR to the breeding. Why put the pups at risk for such a dreaded disease.
I just do not get why people in any place can bury their head in the sand and try and believe that they are not subject to something like this... when instead they could test to know what is in their bloodlines. Maybe someone can explain to me why that seems to be the chosen route in other countries.
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And the more results that are in the database, the more information breeders have when thinking about breeding… regardless if you have pet pup... and never want to breed... it is the results that help the people that are breeding...
As I noted before...there were many that said "not in my line" as far as Fanconi, only to find out with the test that 90% of their dogs were carriers... so when breeding, they "dodged" Fanconi.. but what about that one person that might have bred to one of their dogs with another carrier?... and pop up with an affected?.... It is a credit to the breed for all those that have tested... and IMO... a cop out for those that do not test... the price of the cheek swab and test is reasonable for the future of our breed. (OK off the soapbox....)
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I should have explained that WELKS (West of England Ladies Kennel Society) is our first outdoor championship show of the year.
Most of the breeders in the UK are now testing, some are not convinced, it is a shame because it is decreasing the gene pool. Out of five litters this year only two sires used, in such a small numerical breed it can't be good for the future.
Before the testing one of our breeders used an affected bitch to a carrier? dog (I don't see him on the data bank, so assume he isn't tested, this was one of the other litters sired by Tilly's dad), no-one was at fault there was no way of knowing, all of the offspring at this time to my knowledge appear fit and healthy, without testing the dogs we would have no idea there was a problem. I think that if it happened now there would be a lot of unhappy people pointing fingers.
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It is a credit to the breed for all those that have tested… and IMO... a cop out for those that do not test... the price of the cheek swab and test is reasonable for the future of our breed. (OK off the soapbox....)
Go ahead Pat… stand up there and keep it warm for me!
Most of the breeders in the UK are now testing, some are not convinced, it is a shame because it is decreasing the gene pool. Out of five litters this year only two sires used, in such a small numerical breed it can't be good for the future.
Were those two sires tested as clear? An you are right… using only the same dogs in a small local/gene pool, it just gives way to a soon-to-occur bottleneck.
Before the testing one of our breeders used an affected bitch to a carrier? dog (I don't see him on the data bank, so assume he isn't tested, this was one of the other litters sired by Tilly's dad), no-one was at fault there was no way of knowing, all of the offspring at this time to my knowledge appear fit and healthy, without testing the dogs we would have no idea there was a problem. I think that if it happened now there would be a lot of unhappy people pointing fingers.
If this was before testing… how were they to know?
You have to keep in mind in the years preceding the linkage test, many dogs, did not start to spill until well into their veteran years.
I know lots of people like to think they know the health of all the dogs they have produced and I hear it all the time.
But people move, things happen, you lose touch.I am confused as above you mentioned another litter sired by Tilly's dad was to an affected. Was this at the same time as the litter that produced Tilly, or well-before the linkage test [meaning that the resulting pups are more than 20 months old]?
Don't cover your eyes, it IS happening now! There IS finger-pointing.
And quite frankly, these folks DESERVE to have fingers pointed at them!
Just ignoring it leads them to belive that what they are doing is OKAY and it is not okay in any way.I, for one, would not feel any guilt at the finger-pointing when there isn't a reason for these people to be breeding so irresponsibly.
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There was no fault in the mating I mentioned as there was no test, Tilly is from a repeat mating from another litter produced at the time. I don't think at the time of Tilly's litter any of the previous pups from either litter had been tested, they were both lovely litters, all looking healthy, (and still looking healthy) I suppose that they thought there was no problem, they hadn't previously seen fanconi in their lines, they were sadly wrong, this is why nobody can say for sure their line is clear if none of them are tested.
Fanconi must start somewhere, are any of the dogs that have been imported from Africa coming back as carriers or affected? Or has this just mutated over the generations?
