To each their own opinion Debra, I am working with Oakley on other issues right now and at twenty nine months he is still maturing. I don't live my life by the "what ifs", as of right now I'm able to be with him all the time when I'm not working so yes, I cater to his wanting to be around me, it's not rewarding for me to have a dog that's not independent of me, but it's the reality..and until I'm ready to address it 100% I haven't…he has made significant progress in crating and barrier frustrations...so I'm happy with the progress, and frankly..these other issues needs to be dealt with before addressing this...in order to make me leaving him with others successful. He's a happy, healthy young boy with a complex and stubborn mind, I'm going to work with him and not fight him on evolving and adapting his behaviors. However, your concern is noted and appreciated.
Tilly's Fanconi Test Results
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I have been sitting back and reading, and while I do agree that its better for the breed that the gene is eliminated over several generations there are a few things bothering me.
Popular Sire Syndrome came about because of what?
It has been asserted that there is a rise in PRA, HD(hip displasia unless I am misunderstanding), and Hypothyroidism. Aren't all of those that have been mentioned genetic? If so, and we understand that these issues are genetic, then why are they on the rise?
I know what I believe the obvious answer to be to the above questions and it does concern me. I also know if we are aware of these other issues and steps have been taken to identify and test for these conditions and they are still on the rise then what hope do we have for any better results in regard to Fanconi?
Jason
I think Kelli's post addressed your queries very well. I just wanted to add that I am not convinced that HD and Thyroid disorders are on the rise in Basenjis. More (lots more) people are testing for both of these things than ever before, so more cases are being diagnosed…that doesn't mean that this stuff wasn't out there prior to testing. Most Basenjis with HD don't display ANY problems, the only way most people would know their B had deformed hips is to do an xray.
And there is a lot of disagreement in the veterinary field whether a 'normal' thyroid diagnosis, is really 'normal' for a Basenji. So, it is confusing at best...
That doesn't mean that people shouldn't be testing, and trying to breed away from these two problems, they should. But it isn't as simple as it seems at times.
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re: Hip Dysplasia - let me offer this thought. In the German Shepherd dog -which has been tested for years - there has been NO decrease in the % of dogs with HD. It started at 60% years and years ago - and is still at 60%. Now that said the total number of dogs are being tested is increasing however - even in breeding programs that test and only breed good or excellent to good or excellent - they still are getting HD.
It is clear that there are additional factors that are not obvious in x-rays that are at play here - which makes some testing rather problematic.
This was an interesting bit of information I got from some long time GSD breeders.
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Patty,
You are correct there has been one or two that a Carrier and/or Affected have shown up, however, I believe in all those cases, the dog was retested and the correct result was found and it is in line with what would be expected. A couple resulted from a blood draw done at the 2007 Nationals in California where the sample became mixed up for whatever reason.. and I believe that 90% have now been retested with the cheek swab and results corrected. In one other case there is an affected that showed up from two clear testings, however it has now been proven that the affected pup is not an offspring of what was submitted to AKC as its parents. And in this particular case, the breeder is IMO a Backyard Breeder that was/is interested in making money, not the welfare of the breed… and proven because the pups registrations sent to AKC turned out not to be from the sire and dam submitted (and this person owned all the sires and dams). Hence we have to remember that the sample sent are only as good are the honesty of the people submitting them.
There has been 2 or 3 dogs that have tested Affected and are or were at an advance age not showing any affects of Fanconi, ie: not spilling... however.... testing of the offspring has resulted in expected results of Carriers or Affecteds, again seemingly proves that the test so far is show the expected results. Since this is a linkage test, we would have to expect that someplace along the way we will find results that maybe be questionable.. but on the whole, it is IMO, proving to be valid. And for the ones that are coming back IND, it is proving that these dogs are most likely Carriers, judging by the results of their offspring.That said, the more dogs that are tested the more it will or will not prove out the results.... as said many times, if you don't test, you don't know... and if you don't know, you can't say you do or do not have Fanconi in any line of Basenji.
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To address HD, PRA, and Thyroid issues, let me just point out one very important factor… unlike Fanconi, the results if not normal for hips (Ex, good, fair) do not have to be published. It is the owners preference to have other then normal results for Hips and Elbows published or not. And I know for a fact of at least 5 Basenjis local and 1 not local that were called dyplastic and the owners did not have the results released to be published. So really we can not say that there is or is not an increase unless all the results are published, good, bad, or indifferent. We can only test and hopefully have some testing history of littermates, offspring, parents, grandparents, etc.
Andrea said that many and most times, Basenjis with hip problems are not noticed and not know unless they have been X-rayed... and for the most part I would agree... except in advanced age.. then it is very noticable, IMO...
Same goes for Thyroid and PRA, if the results are not sent into OFA to be published then who can say if it is on the rise or decrease. PRA is thought to be recessive, but until we have a DNA test we don't know... just like we had with Fanconi.... However if enough people that had or have a dog with PRA would submit the results, then we could in some lines see if the recessive theory holds water... Same with Thyroid.. and as Andrea said there is lots of opinions on what is or is not acceptable... and Thyroid problems are still one of the biggest gray areas, IMO. Again, when breeders do not disclose tests results... how does one know the right or wrong answer?
Until we have a totally open health data base, we don't know... and kudos to the BCOA to have made the Fanconi results mandatory open disclosure on the OFA database.
And yes it is great that all of this can be discussed... ideas exchanges along with data about our Basenjis... and Kudos to our breed for being in the fore front of open, honest exchange of infomation compared to other breeds.
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Tanza - thanks for the explanation. Where a retest is necessary is it done for free? Also - For the ignorant (me) what is IND?
Interesting that dogs tested Affected could be showing no symptoms - do you know how this is possible? -
Tanza - thanks for the explanation. Where a retest is necessary is it done for free? Also - For the ignorant (me) what is IND?
Interesting that dogs tested Affected could be showing no symptoms - do you know how this is possible?It was done for free in some cases, depends on the situation. IND is Indeterminate, which is classified as between a Clear and Carrier. Explanation on Indeterminate can be found at http://www.basenjihealth.org/linkage-faq.html
As far as the ones that show no symptoms… why not? Before the test who knew if there were dogs out there that would have tested as affected but no symptoms or the degree that they develop symptoms? Same goes for the protocol... why do some Basenjis do really well on the protocol and some not well at all?
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It seems to me that not enough research is available on Fanconi, there seem to be so many questions - I did ask some questions on the basenji health site and some they could answer and some not. I've tried to find answers elsewhere but could find nothing. I wasn't aware until you've just told me that not all dogs do well on the protocol either. Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks. I must be dumb because I would have assumed that with no symptoms there could be no disease? Eg isn't it like saying someone has cancer when they have no growths, no symptoms etc.? Can I have your thoughts on that, Tanza?
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I had a b that couldn't handle the pills.
He died.
Living with fanconis is not a fun thing.
Preventing it should be the key. -
It seems to me that not enough research is available on Fanconi, there seem to be so many questions - I did ask some questions on the basenji health site and some they could answer and some not. I've tried to find answers elsewhere but could find nothing. I wasn't aware until you've just told me that not all dogs do well on the protocol either. Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks. I must be dumb because I would have assumed that with no symptoms there could be no disease? Eg isn't it like saying someone has cancer when they have no growths, no symptoms etc.? Can I have your thoughts on that, Tanza?
As far as doing well or not on the protocol, that is not very surprising to me… no different then why do some people beat cancer? Some just do well on the treatment, some do not. And it depends on the degree of the illness. I firmly believe that Fanconi is much like Cancer... and there are different degress of how the illness progresses. And then add in the fact of trying to shove pills down a dog... of course would add to how effective it is. It would IMO, be very stressful for the animal and that IMO would add to how effective the treatment is or is not...
Since catching Fanconi early is a key 99% of the time and it is caught by strip testing for spilling sugar in the urine, it is usually the owners that catch it before a Vet. And still in this day, many Vets don't have a clue what Fanconi is... during normal check ups, provide you take your dog yearly at least and have all tests done like complete blood work up with checking the urine, easy enough to miss it if there is really no remarkable changes noticed by the owners. I doubt that many do a complete work up once a year on their dogs.
And for those few dogs that were not showing any symptoms, it is very possible that they were not spilling sugar or it was not every day... so easy enough to miss unless you were stripping every single day... so maybe the degree of their illness was not as bad as others. Look at the number of people that find cancer or some other illness at an advance stage, but they had never felt sick? Entirely possible.... And I am sure that many would want to have more details on those few dogs that are/were of advance age... to study... if they are or not, I have no idea. In one case the dog was already deceased, but they have blood/DNA with Dr. Johnson and had it tested.
And now with the test.. there is never a reason to again produce a dog with Fanconi... so really it becomes a moot point, IMO
And the more dogs that are tested the more data we have, which to me is so very important...
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Yes, Pat your so right…never a reason to have a fanconis b again...unless you just DON'T care!!!
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patty - some of the reasons that this has been so difficult to work with - until the test - is that many who became symptomatic - did so at 5 or 6. Typically it seems the earlier they were drinking a lot and spilling sugar - the worse they did on the Protocal.
How many times at a vet visit do you bring in or do they take a urine sample? If you don't know that you are looking for something (and many vets are not familiar with this disease) you don't know what tests to run.
A general vet check doesnt' find fanconi any better than a MD visit will find a serious but not currently presenting issue.
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patty - some of the reasons that this has been so difficult to work with - until the test - is that many who became symptomatic - did so at 5 or 6. Typically it seems the earlier they were drinking a lot and spilling sugar - the worse they did on the Protocal.
How many times at a vet visit do you bring in or do they take a urine sample? If you don't know that you are looking for something (and many vets are not familiar with this disease) you don't know what tests to run.
A general vet check doesnt' find fanconi any better than a MD visit will find a serious but not currently presenting issue.
Exactly….
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Also I would have thought that symptoms of some sort would be discovered on the routine veterinary checks.
Because the very earliest symptoms are ones that would not be caught unless a blood gas test was run, it would not normally be caught. Blood gases is not a normal test and many vets don't have the equipment to run them. In fact, when we first got the DNA marker test some people who got back Probably Afflicted results ran blood gases just to see and saw that even though the dogs were not yet spilling the blood gases results showed signs that changes were taking place in kidney's ability to reabsorb nutrients.
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And now with the test.. there is never a reason to again produce a dog with Fanconi… so really it becomes a moot point, IMO
Pat, you know that I will agree with this…
but in fact, it isn't the case... the point isn't MOOT.After all, Tilly is only 18 months old...
which means that the litter was bred AFTER the Fanconi Linkage Test became available.
There were many Zande [UK] dogs tested that summer [2007] and many carriers… telling us that the mutant gene IS there...
if there were/are carriers, there is more than likely the disease.Tilly's breeder's were playing russian roulette by doing such a breeding,
without health-testing the parents.
Unfortunately, you and Tilly get to pay the price for their gambling.Best of luck to Tilly.. enjoy your years with her.
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Most vets don't know anything about fanconi to recognise it, back in the 80's my breeder gave me the current information at that time to alert the vet to the possibility, as I understand it if the vet doesn't recognise Fanconi the usual treatment they might try would actually make the situation worse, I am not very knowledgable on the subject, but firmly believe that we should be testing as many dogs as possible.
I know that it can be inherited, and when a dog comes back affected it may not be showing symptoms, it may not show them for many years, a bit like breast cancer where a number of the family may suffer and a person may carry the genes but not all develop it, or some not for years.
A lot of people were talking about Fanconi at WELKS and coming to their own conclusions about dogs that hadn't been tested, we will never know if they don't test. Although its sad that Tilly has come back affected at least they have got people talking about Fanconi again, and some more dogs are now being tested.
I believe that as well as being hereditary it can also be triggered by external influence one of which was antibiotics used after the expiry date, has anyone else heard of this?
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Tanza - my dogs are all subject to a routine veterinary check every year including blood, urine, heart, eyes, etc. (Generally, the only time most of them see a vet!) It's a practice carried on from the breeder whose affix I've inherited. Also whenever I get any scientific information particular to Basenjis I pass it on to him. It's true that many vets in the UK don't know about Fanconi Syndrome.
Another question for any to answer, please - do Fanconi carriers, affected etc drink more than 'normal' Basenjis. Is this a way it could be spotted earlier on? I ask because this might be a useful piece of advice topass on to interested parties
Moetmum - fairly recently Fanconi was caused in various dogs (not only Basenjis) by eating contaminated chews (I'm not sure what the contamination was, obviously some kind of poison. Dr Gonto gave us a list of things that cause Fanconi - probably some of the others know? -
Another question for any to answer, please - do Fanconi carriers, affected etc drink more than 'normal' Basenjis. Is this a way it could be spotted earlier on?
Increased drinking is a symptom of Fanconi but is not the earliest symptom. The earliest symptom that is the easiest for an owner to detect is spilling sugar in the urine. Since this symptom can be intermittent in the very early stages of the disease it is best to several days a month.
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Isn't the damage to the kidneys started, once the dogs show sign of increasing water drinking?
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Yes, and usually fairly significant by that time.
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Patty it is good to have all of the dogs tested annually but they could still develop Fanconi in the interim, if it developed a month or two later than your annual check and wasn't being monitored the damage would already be done by the next annual check, if you test at least you have a good indication, what have you got to lose?
There is a problem in the UK, I was shocked at the results that were emerging, I also thought the line my dogs came from was long lived, I sincerely hope that you are right that you don't have a problem, my two had good long healthy lives but there was still a problem in the line, as has previously been stated it has been like Russian Roulette. There are no records of what Basenjis have actually succumbed to, if vets are unaware how many are misdiagnosed? We have no way of knowing for sure. It isn't fair on the dogs or prospective owners to take that risk.
