@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
Untitled
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Dear Jason and Miranda,
I kinda get the idea you are only here to attack people (breeders?) on their opinion.
We are all on this forum to help each other. Of course this is also a place to start a discusion, but this feels more like an attack (on Tanza?)
When you feel that responsible breeder aren't responsible (enough), I invite you to start a threat about it. This is a threat about puppy agression.
Now I'm walking away quietly..
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<_>
I agree Lisa. I don't think I have seen or heard a BCOA breeder ever use that phrase. Honestly it kind of goes with the territory for carefully planned litters. "Champion bloodlines" in a advertisement is a red flag for me. That is playing to a buyer's desire to have a "champion" dog,or the "best" dog. An educated buyer wouldn't be fooled by that phrase. An educated buyer will be more impressed with "Parents fully tested for genetic disease"…or "Dog may be returned to me for any reason, for the rest of its life"_
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Thank you for your post. I can accept and live with everything you have said. A couple of reasons I consistently find your post easy to accept, is because it's apparent to me that you do it with class, and without arrogance.
Once again thank you for your post.
Jason
Thank you for the compliment, Jason. But, in reality, I am saying pretty much the same thing as the other breeders on this forum. You may like my approach better…but the sentiment is the same.
I suggest that if you don't like the tone with which someone posts, ignore it. That is what I try to do
Obviously, just like in real life, not everyone 'clicks'.And again, the reason that it may see like we harp on the importance of finding a good breeder, is that we want people to be happy and satisified with their pets for the dog's whole life...we don't want to see more dogs coming into rescue, or being indiscriminantly bred, or being abused/neglected. We can reach a lot of people on a forum like this, so we repeat the message over and over. And I can promise you that we feel buyer education is the key.
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Dear Jason and Miranda,
I kinda get the idea you are only here to attack people (breeders?) on their opinion.
We are all on this forum to help each other. Of course this is also a place to start a discusion, but this feels more like an attack (on Tanza?)
When you feel that responsible breeder aren't responsible (enough), I invite you to start a threat about it. This is a threat about puppy agression.
Now I'm walking away quietly..
I agree! All of your posts have been a bit on the attacking or overly defensive side. There is no need to get so defensive & honestly, just plain rude IMO. Although your posts have been fairly eloquent with the language/grammar, they come off as mean just the same. You are criticizing individuals that I don't think deserve it one bit for trying to share important information re our beloved breed. I can say from my own experience, that had it not been for this forum [& particular members] I wouldn't know even half of the information I now do about our breed & I probably would not have found such a great breeder like I did. Although, you know, I also agree that sometimes it is best to just walk away…
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Miranda and I have not attacked anyone verbally, but thats ok. When we first joined, we upset someone because we challenged information that was presented in correctly. Now that we are voicing our opinions as many others have done here, we are being taken to task for it.
We will do what we should have done when all this crap was started in post we put up for introduction. We will seek information elsewhere. Good luck with your forum. Maybe the next person that joins will be more receptive about being taken to task in regard to the food they choose to feed, choice of breeder, heath testing, and how, when and where, their new puppies should be socialized.
Jason and Miranda
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I think that most responsible breeders are willing to do this and have done this for perspective buyers. I know that at least one breeder took the time to do this and post it to the web as an example of what it costs to responsibly breed a litter, http://www.geocities.com/rugosab/Prices.htm Many here also encourage anyone who is considering purchasing a puppy to discuss with the breeder what testing they are doing, how they raise their pups, and the basics of what they are really getting for their money. Again the desire if for perspective puppy buyers to make informed decisions.
I visit a lot of basenji websites and have to say that the breeders that I consider responsible are do not use "champion bloodlines" as a selling point. This isn't to say that they do not brag about their champions and they do have their dogs on their websites with the full names including titles but their reasons for selecting the sire and dam of a litter are really about the qualities of the dogs and not just the titles they have earned. Most of the small blurbs on the litter are fairly well balanced in describing health, temperament, and conformation/performance traits that they are hoping for in the litter.
Read the second link down
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Miranda and I have not attacked anyone verbally, but thats ok. When we first joined, we upset someone because we challenged information that was presented in correctly. Now that we are voicing our opinions as many others have done here, we are being taken to task for it.
We will do what we should have done when all this crap was started in post we put up for introduction. We will seek information elsewhere. Good luck with your forum. Maybe the next person that joins will be more receptive about being taken to task in regard to the food they choose to feed, choice of breeder, heath testing, and how, when and where, their new puppies should be socialized.
Jason and Miranda
I think you may be sorry that you are giving up on a source of valuable information because you don't like the way one person expresses her thoughts.
It DID seem as if that first post set you on your ear, and after that, had Tanza said "the sky is blue" you would have felt it necessary to reply, "That is your opinion. I believe the sky is azure.". May not have been your attempt, but it is how many posts were perceived by many here.As you move on in your journey with this interesting and atypical breed, you may well wish you'd stuck around to garner what valuable insights this forum has to offer.
Best of luck,
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Read the second link down
I am not exactly sure what your point is with this link.
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Read the second link down
I don't get the point here.
Because one person does it…..or because 100 people do it...doesn't make it the norm or the correct. Nor does being listed on a page of breeders necessarily make one a responsible breeder.
And if you do visit the website of Mountain dogs {the second link on that page} there is NO mention of health testing for any of the dogs........
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The link to the Mountain Basenji website show six different basenji litters in Dec of 2007. And nothing on the health testing or pedigrees.
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I was definitely told to avoid that breeder. Good advice.
Does anyone else think some of B's on the website have huge ears? -
I really am starting to dislike this holier than thou responsible breeder representation that I keep seeing!
Jason
If by "holier than thou" means that a responisble breeder:
1. Does not breed without having DNA tests for Fanconi
2. OFA's hips and elbows for Dysplasia, patellas checked - before breeding
3. Has Board Certified Eye exams - before breeding (and these three are just at a minimum for testing and certainly others if there is any questions about possible health concerns in any siblings/offsping of the sire and dam)
4. Has Board Certified Eye exams before placing puppies
5. Has well socialized pups and doesn't breed dogs with poor temperaments and for that matter, poor conformation that will usually lead to health problems.
6. Places pups on a spay/neuter contract with limited registration, unless other arrangements are made in case there is interest in showing
7. Has a contract that states if the Basenji needs to be given up for any reason for its lifetime, it comes back to the breeder
8. Screens homes before placement
9. Typically has a waiting list for puppies before breeding
10. Has an active interest in at least the parent breed club and understands the health concerns in the breed
11. And has an idea of "what" the dogs they are considering breeding has to "offer" the Basenji Fancy, be it in the show ring, in a performance venue, or a loving family pet
And a host of others… then, well, yes.... that is how responsible breeders should and would want to be represented. -
Oh, wait Pat you missed one more test-the Brucellosis test. It's not a holier than thou responsible breeder representation, it's wanting to do what's best for the dog and for the people who will own the dog. Oh, and by the way, we are not in it for the money like BYB.
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If by "holier than thou" means that a responisble breeder:
1. Does not breed without having DNA tests for Fanconi
2. OFA's hips and elbows for Dysplasia, patellas checked - before breeding
3. Has Board Certified Eye exams - before breeding (and these three are just at a minimum for testing and certainly others if there is any questions about possible health concerns in any siblings/offsping of the sire and dam)
4. Has Board Certified Eye exams before placing puppies
5. Has well socialized pups and doesn't breed dogs with poor temperaments and for that matter, poor conformation that will usually lead to health problems.
6. Places pups on a spay/neuter contract with limited registration, unless other arrangements are made in case there is interest in showing
7. Has a contract that states if the Basenji needs to be given up for any reason for its lifetime, it comes back to the breeder
8. Screens homes before placement
9. Typically has a waiting list for puppies before breeding
10. Has an active interest in at least the parent breed club and understands the health concerns in the breed
11. And has an idea of "what" the dogs they are considering breeding has to "offer" the Basenji Fancy, be it in the show ring, in a performance venue, or a loving family pet
And a host of others… then, well, yes.... that is how responsible breeders should and would want to be represented.ALL good things to check on before purchasing your pup!
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As for testing 'pets', this helps the breeder determine if their breeding is successful for what they hope to achieve. That is, if they want all probable clear for Fanconi, they need to test the pets as well as the "champions". Same goes for OFA's of hips/patellas/elbows and any other afflictions pertaining to the breed in question. This does not necessarily go for just Basenji's. I certainly don't intend to charge $1000 for pups and most people I know of don't. However, if you look at bulldogs for instance they need to charge that amount and more to cover the costs. Bulldogs need AI and C-sections ALL the time. But also, you need to look at different circumstances. If you cannot afford $1000 you also need to look at what you can offer a pet-and often a rescue is more than worth it to a pet person. We certainly need pet people, as breeders. But we also need to look at where we are going with the breed as well. By checking on references, and taking chances with some people both sides can learn a lot (meaning breeders and pet people). Some people have very good intentions but cannot fulfill them-from either side. I know this is long and rambling, but I hope people are looking at both sides.
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Even though both of my B's were purchased as pets, I greatly appreciate the testing that Bryan and Laurie do/did on their dogs, so that I know exactly what I got with my dogs – or as exactly as is possible.
Makes perfect sense to me to test whether for pets, show, or breeding.
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Wouldn´t it be easier to have a breeders list that is set by the basenji club which you can´t get on to advertise your litter if you haven´t done all the tests that are regulated by the club and AKC.Ok I know you are a continent and not like our little country but arrange it state wise it would help newcomers so they could choose from accepted and vetted breeders.
But I do understand this couple a bit since they were welcomed with a torrent of questions instead of just saying hi welcome aboard and give them time to settle in and then ask questions if one felt it necessary to know all about them with a bit more subtle mannerism.Maybe i´m wrong but reading all the posts it felt that they were bulldozed/ given the third degree
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If you look at most of the welcome threads. There is usually a lot of welcomes and pretty quick the question, whose your pup's breeder? or where did you get your pup? comes up. These questions really aren't the "third degree", they are natural human curiosity. Many on this list have found that they are "related" and like to know those connections.
The question about "Were the parents tested?", comes up pretty quickly too since it is something that everyone needs to know about. Many on this list who have been in the breed for awhile, know people who have lost dogs to this disease. It is a subject they feel strongly about. It is also a health issue that all breeders can prevent by testing and making good breeding choices. We are not that lucky with other diseases where you have to do the testing, hope that other people will do testing so you can build vertical pedigrees and then at the end of the day make your best educated guess.
So though it may seem like it was a barrage, many other welcomes have included very similar questions and have not generated the hostility that occurred in this case.
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I totally agree with you, Ivoss, but like the post before yours, I do agree with them as well. I know that in writing it is hard to convey emotion, but I do think that some of us could work a little harder at how things are worded, and remember that not everyone is a basenji expert right off the bat.
For example, when we got our basenji we got her from a rescue organization, and I have to admit, I knew nothing about Fanconi, glucose strip testing, basenji breeders, etc. I did not even know much about how to care for dogs, as this was my first up-close experience with them.
I just went back into my earliest posts and I am happy with the fact that everyone welcomed me very nicely and was very reassuring and helpful when it came to answering my questions, some of which were pretty dumb…looking back its amazing to see how much I have learned about basenjis and how to care for them...seems I was rather careless in the beginning
Anyway, my point is, I came to love this forum because when I did ask a question that wasn't the brightest, instead of making me feel dumb and uneducated, people responded very kindly and made me feel more confident and comfortable with my situation. Only from reading more on this board, did I eventually come to learn about Fanconi and other health issues, and I must say, I am glad I was not bombarded with these things right away.
Being a first time dog owner, had someone gone right into throwing questions at me like are you glucose testing, did your dogs sire/dam get tested for Fanconi, etc. I would have been extremely overwhelmed and agitated, wondering what I had gotten myself into, and feeling like a horrible dog parent for not knowing these things.
I do feel like lately attitudes towards new people have changed, and while I do feel that some people may be a little over-defensive, I can see their point of view. I know sometimes in the past I have felt bad for people who ask an innocent question and get bombarded with all these things, and end up feeling bad...for example I remember recently reading someone who introduced themselves and later I saw them put something like "I was beginning to think I was doing everything wrong." (I tried to find the exact quote but could not find it in the search, I do know it was recent though).
Do I think anyone is doing this intentionally? Of course not.
I really, truly believe everyone's intentions are good, and I understand that some are very passionate about issues like Fanconi, breeding, etc. I think these people are very bright and I am glad they are kind enough to volunteer their time to help others and share their vast knowledge. However, I do hope that maybe this opens their eyes a little bit to how their tone comes off. I have been put off by things like that for quite awhile, and although I am not happy about the hostility that occured here, I am glad the issue got brought up. Obviously there are more people who feel this way, considering the message that was brought up by the moderators in the Forum Help section. I am not sure what the behind the scenes stuff is in this case, and I dont' know if its related to this thread or not, but I do think this comment sums it up perfectly:
"Members have expressed on numerous occasions that they feel as though they have to meet a certain standard in order to join our community."
I hope things get better. I am so happy to have found this forum, and the friendly, knowledgeable people who are on it, and I just hope new members can have the same positive experience that I have had when joining.
