@creambasenji said in New Puppy Advice:
She's 9 months and 8.5 pounds. Doesn't seem she will be getting any bigger
This must be a typo. 9 months or 9 weeks?
At any rate, I'd love to see a picture of a cream Basenji, toy or not.
Pet Store Puppies - Problem
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Have you ever wondered about what happens to the puppies who don't get adopted from a pet store? I just read the post from Andrea in another thread. I understand the issue of not purchasing from a pet store. If no one bought a puppy that was bred from puppy mills, they would not be able to sustain a lucrative business. Thus, fewer unhealthy puppies - which is good. But my heart pours when I see those cute, innocent little creatures in the windows. I became aware of the puppy mill business from television news magazine programs. It's so-so sad, for the only purpose in the dogs life is to give birth to puppies. And they live in nasty conditions.
The only place I've adopted my dogs were from the Humane Society. They are usually mixes and definately not inbred. But I have been tempted to "save" a puppy from the window of a pet store. They are so irresistable. Unfortunately for me, I do not know what my boy Duke's background is. He looks full-blooded Basenji which kind of scares me because he may become very unhealthy - have a short life - due to the possibility of being inbred. (He was found abandoned with a brother in the cold of March in a parking lot.) But when I saw him, I had to have him, not because he was free, but because he needed help. (Free by no means compared to the amount of money I've paid for vet bills, fencing and toys-toys and more toys.) You can't buy love though.
Does anyone know what happens to the pet store puppies who don't get adopted?
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they're not "adopted" from a pet shop. They are just plain bought & sold. If a pup isn't turning a profit, I imagine he/she is of no use to the shop. I'm not sure I'd want to know, perhaps they are PTS, or worse, shipped off to another mill, posted online, etc… I imagine some are so sick they have to be PTS.
Personally, I don't even ENTER such shops. I refuse, and urge my friends/family, to not buy anything from stores that sell animals for profit. I won't support them in any way.
I do however, strongly support those large chains who have real adoption days - working in conjunction w/ a shelter/rescue group.
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Jessi76 is right, pups aren't adopted from pet stores. It is purely a financial transaction.
When I worked in a large chain shopping mall pet store when I was a very naive youngster, the price just kept dropping until someone bought the puppy. Puppies were never sent back to the breeder or broker as they had no use for them. (Shipping a single puppy back would cost more than the original price of the puppy.) Sometimes when the store really needed the space that an older, unsold puppy took up, the store manager would mark the animal off as "dead" and give it to an employee. No puppies were ever euthanized unless they were seriously ill at the store I worked at. Not to say puppies didn't die, that did happen sometimes.
At the time I worked there, all "livestock" was marked up an average of 500%. For instance, if the store bought a puppy for $100, it was priced at $499. The huge markup is needed to cover the high expense of rent and utilities in the mall and other expenses. Unsold puppies cost the store alot of money and if enough puppies (and other animals) remain unsold, the stores are sometimes forced to go out of business.
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Personally, I don't even ENTER such shops. I refuse, and urge my friends/family, to not buy anything from stores that sell animals for profit. I won't support them in any way.
I do however, strongly support those large chains who have real adoption days - working in conjunction w/ a shelter/rescue group.
But even those large chains usually sell some pets for profit – guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, birds, etc. It's hard to find one that doesn't sell some animal for profit.
And it's not always possible to boycott them. Around here, the only places I can buy the dog food we use are PetSmart, PetCo, or the local feed store that also sells some animals. The grocery stores and Wal-Marts only have so many options for supplies. Shopping online is not always a reasonable option.
But, I would never buy a pet from any of those places.
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Yep, and I don't really have a problem with selling small pets for profit. One of the main problems I have is that puppies that are sold from pet stores didn't spend the time necessary with their mom and littermates to learn proper manners. If you spend any time training dogs, you find that the ones that have the worst problems with bite inhibition were separated from their mommas before eight weeks old.
Another significant problem is that breeders of mass produced puppies don't do any health testing, nor do they consider temperament before throwing two dogs together. Heck, you are lucky if they even throw two dogs of the same breed together before claiming their puppies are "quality" purebreds. And THEN people pay four digit price tags for a dog where health, pedigree and temperament are unknowns...when they could have found a responsible breeder that would have charged them half that amount for a puppy, and been available to help for the rest of the puppies life....crazy.....
I am ranting again..... -
i think often people buy puppies from such stores on an impulse. i have also found breeder websites, where you put in a credit card number and they ship you a dog. luckily for me, i have had enough experiences with basenjis that i was never even tempted to do so. another reason to buy from either is that basenjis are only in season once a year, and impulsive people do not want to wait. i think a good way to look at it is by "rescuing" that one dog from the pet store, you are helping to sentence another to a life of being a "breeding stock" at a puppy mill…it is so hard to keep those things in perspective when you are looking in those little brown eyes.
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But even those large chains usually sell some pets for profit – guinea pigs, hamsters, mice, birds, etc. It's hard to find one that doesn't sell some animal for profit.
you're absolutely right, and the fact that small animals such as those are sold at some large chains slipped my mind. Perhaps it doesn't bother me as much… or perhaps when I'm there I focus my attention elsewhere... who knows.
Thankfully I get my pets' food/supplies at a store that doesn't sell any live animals.
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I bought Zahra from a pet store. Okay, beat me up, I know that I should not have but my heart broke when I saw her the first time in the pet store and then over a month later saw that she was still there. No one seemed interested in her.
I knew all about puppy mills, I always said we would buy from a breeder, adopt from a shelter, etc.
We have been lucky with Zahra, she has only so far had Mange and behavior wise potty training her has been tough. Do I wish I would not have bought her? No. Do I wish I would have adopted her or got her from a breeder? YES, then I would not feel guilty about supporting puppy mills and about the Basenji breed being compromised by bad offspring for profit.
I had only had cats previously and had always adopted from the Humane Society, Animal Shelters, SPCA, etc. My last cat was adopted through a rescue that was at PetSmart, after 10 months and a lot of vet bills my cat was diagnosed with Leukemia and had to be put to sleep even though the rescue claimed to have done all the test (long story but it turns out that the rescue may not have been very reputable).
I too had always wondered, with the gut wrenching thought of what probably happens to pet store animals that are not adopted.
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I won't beat you up, I promise
We all love our dogs however we got them; I just want to people to make sure that they go into dog purchases/adoptions/whatever with their eyes wide open, so they can make an educated choice._ -
You know the one thing that I did not think about was the possibility that I would want to enter Zahra in Lure Coursing or other activities like that and when you buy from a pet store you can't do that because they are not AKC dogs, they are the pet store version of a kennel club, ACA. I am waiting to apply for the AKC waiver for Zahra once her coat clears up from the mange.
I think when you buy at the pet store you don't think about things like that you are thinking about how cute this dog is and how sorry you feel that it is stuck in that tiny cage behind the glass.
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Ok, so you guys don't like pet stores, well, I am glad I went into one or I wouldn't have been introduced to this wonderful breed. Yea, I paid too much, but what the heck, I would spend it somewhere else and not gotten the love I have gotten from this purchase. My Sahara could not be any better, she is just the sweetest thing. She is well mannered, and housebroken, which by the way was easy, and she loves everyone she sees. I don't understand how breeders don't make a profit on their puppies, they sell them don't they. If there was no profit I don't think there would be many breeders doing it, it is not easy I am sure. So, once again, I am glad I went into a pet store.:D
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I don't want to get into an argument about this. I clearly said I understand that everyone of us loves their dogs regardless of where they came from. But the huge majority of responsible breeders simply don't make a profit on a litter of basenji puppies. For one thing, responsible breeders spend hundreds of dollars on health tests for each of the their breeding dogs…some of which will never be bred because of the outcome of the tests. Most responsible breeders are involved in some sort of activity which tests the quality of the dog, either showing in conformation, or lure coursing for our breed...it can cost hundreds of dollars in entry fees to finish a dog's conformation championship. It can cost quite a bit of money to use a stud that complements a bitch in temperament, health and conformation....in addition to a stud fee, the owner of the stud usually gets a puppy back as well.
So to break it down: You pay $800 for show quality bitch; Health testing and vet care to raise a bitch from 8 weeks to 3 yrs, $300; Testing for hips, eyes and thyroid, $400; Showing to championship, not including travel, $250; Stud fee, $500; Pregnancy vet care $200. By my math, that adds up to about $2400. So your bitch has 4 puppies, you keep one, the stud owner gets one, that gives you two to sell, and likely pet in your area sell for about $600...so you earn $1200. About half of what you spent. And of course, you could breed your bitch again, and make up the other half of what you put into her...but I sure wouldn't call that turning a profit. Of course, your bitch might have six puppies instead of four...but then she might have one....or she might have a C-section and put you fovever in the money hole....._
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In the end, my problem with pet stores that sell dogs, isn't really about the money (though that is irritating). It is what puppy mills do to the dogs that they breed from...they are kept as domestic breeding stock, in pens...some more comfortable than others...but what kind of life is that for a dog? They don't get to socialize with other dogs, they don't get to feel sunshine, or a warm comfy bed.
And don't get me started on what they do to a breed. By disregarding health and temperament puppy-milling can turn a sweet, healthy breed into a nightmare.
Youngandtired says this:
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Well, you haven't met many basenji breeders then. Responsible breeders are stewards of the breed, not producers of it. Breeders have different reasons for breeding...but no one that I know (and I know MANY) are breeding for profit. We breed because we love the breed, and want to protect it.
I am glad you are happy with Sahara, and I am glad she has presented you with no problems, I hope it continues that way forever. You are very lucky -
Andrea is right, if you add up all of the costs of a responsibly bred litter it adds up pretty quickly. And she probably underestimated some of the costs. Right now, I am paying $108 per progesterone test to get the timing right for my planned litter since I have to get my girl to Arizona on time. So far we have done 3 tests and she hasn't ovulated yet. Then there is the stud fee to pay. On day 28 I do an ultrasound to confirm pregnancy that runs another $75. A few days before she is due I have her in for another check and x-ray to make sure that everything is going okay and so we know how many puppies to expect which runs another $100. Then within 48 hours of whelping the pups go in to have their dew claws removed, at my vet that costs $45 for the first puppy and $15 for every other one. I do eye exams on every one of my puppies before they go home, that is $35 per puppy, microchips are also $35 per puppy. 2 sets of puppy shots, which I can't remember exact costs but is about $45 for the visit and then the vaccine cost which is between $15-20 per puppy.
I have left out the cost of the supplies for whelping and cleaning up after the puppies. There is also all the food that a litter of puppies will go through. A responsible breeder does not breed to make profit, they breed because they love the breed and want puppy for themselves.
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Oh Geez! Yeah, I forgot all about the money that goes into the puppies before they go to their new homes! Thanks for pointing that out Lisa.
I did intentionally understimate a lot of the costs…I was doing it as if it were a "shoestring" breeding budget. But of course, lots of people do progesterone testing, and even artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization....very costly....not something you do to make more money...only for a love of the breed.
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Andrea is right. There is a huge responsibility involved in maintaining a healthy breed - not to mention all the money for all things mentioned by a breeder. Most people don't know it - I surely didn't know how much went into a breeder's litter of pups. However, dog show people do. I always thought dog show people bred for dog show people. Isn't that naive? (I'm not a dog show person
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I have to give Kudos to those who save the BYB/Puppymill dogs…the shelter dogs...but also those who take the time, love, patience, and money to show a dogs to their CH and ensure all the dogs have their health tests done and cleared before they breed them.
I know that I am trying to be one of the latter with my two. I really hope I help the breed in the future.
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I'd love to introduce Hollie to lure coursing. As most b's she loves to run. However Hollie is a mix and can't compete. I love her anyway and take her to run at the dog park and anywhere else that is fenced in an secure. Being whippet and basenji she is a huge fan of running.
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I just came upon this web site, while looking at Black Dog Ware online . . . Can't believe it - Coincidence?
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006607120384
It's about Pet Store Puppies and reasons not to buy. OMG!!
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I opened this can, but that's Ok. Yes, I am blessed with my purchase from a pet store. I really expected a response on this issue, and I am not going to argue about it either. I am not a breeder, and I expected breeders on this subject to give their opinion, future breeders as well. To be honest I will probably buy my next B from a breeder b/c concerns that have become clear to me about puppy mills. But the fact remains if that pet store had not been there I would know nothing about this breed.
