I don't know if you feed your dog before you walk him, but if you don't, you might find walking him first early morning, after waking up will take care of this issue. My boy basenji won't even eat until he has "done" his business.
Same in the afternoon. Walks will empty them and make them hungery.
Well, so much for drugs…..
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Wishing you lots of luck. You are a great mommy for doing all you can to help keoki with his seperation issues. On a positive note, I am glad to know you are receiving what seems to be great help and at least this is something that hopefully within time may get better wihtout the use of meds that made him so dopey. Look forward to hearing about your progress.
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When I went to an animal behaviorist at UC Davis here in CA to try to get help for Max, she told me that basenjis were her most difficult separation anxiety patients to deal with. Fortunately, his case was pretty mild. I think any info you post here on your experience will be very helpful for a lot of people. Thank you for "forum schooling" us in addition to your "home schooling"
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When we first got She-Ra, the first time we had to leave her alone (just to get some pet food and toys) our neighbor stopped by and said he thought he heard a kid screaming or something in the house. So we introduced him to the dog, and asked him to let us know if he hears anything else.
To date, no reports…she's pretty much figured just because Mom and Dad go out it doesn't mean they're not coming back...and when they do it's usually with something for her!
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To date, no reports…she's pretty much figured just because Mom and Dad go out it doesn't mean they're not coming back...and when they do it's usually with something for her!
If only Keoki would catch on to that!
Gypsy and Jazzy BOTH know when they see me come home with lots of bags {I only shop twice a month for a family of 8, so it's a lot of bags!}, that at least ONE of them has goodies in it for them.
Of course, neither of them care when we leave either. Jazzy settled down w/in a few weeks, and I was able to return home to a clean crate and a calm dog.
Keoki still hasn't caught on, and we've been working on it since April!He was a bit older when we got him – he was a full 3 mos old; Jazz was maybe 9 or 10 weeks -- and I wonder if that longer time w/his siblings didn't make the difference. {? just a thought}
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I have to say, I think I would try the behaviorist method… It make sense to me.... I think it would be hard to try and combine two different peoples ideas... instead of just sticking to one...
Just, FTR…Pat and I usually agree on most things
but the suggestion to completely ignore the dog for an extended period of time makes me uncomfortable. We have to work really hard with Basenjis to keep that bond in place that keeps them from becoming *completely wild dogs...I would hesitate to do anything that would try to weaken the bond; or turn a separation anxiety problem into a fear/trust problem.That being said, I really hope this works for Keoki, and I am really anxious to hear how the progress is coming
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If only Keoki would catch on to that!
Gypsy and Jazzy BOTH know when they see me come home with lots of bags {I only shop twice a month for a family of 8, so it's a lot of bags!}, that at least ONE of them has goodies in it for them.
Of course, neither of them care when we leave either. Jazzy settled down w/in a few weeks, and I was able to return home to a clean crate and a calm dog.
Keoki still hasn't caught on, and we've been working on it since April!He was a bit older when we got him – he was a full 3 mos old; Jazz was maybe 9 or 10 weeks -- and I wonder if that longer time w/his siblings didn't make the difference. {? just a thought}
So, does the entire family ever leave for several hours?
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Just, FTR…Pat and I usually agree on most things
but the suggestion to completely ignore the dog for an extended period of time makes me uncomfortable. We have to work really hard with Basenjis to keep that bond in place that keeps them from becoming *completely wild dogs...I would hesitate to do anything that would try to weaken the bond; or turn a separation anxiety problem into a fear/trust problem.That being said, I really hope this works for Keoki, and I am really anxious to hear how the progress is coming
yes we usually do, Andrea.. and you make valid points. I guess it would depend on "how" long extended period of time really is….If I relate this to my own dogs, while they love to be with us, they have no problem going off on their own to nap in the sun, look for squirrels, etc... they don't demand that they are under foot 24/7. And when we go out (mind you that we both work so they are used to use us being gone for a good part of the day)... it is never a problem. Of course too, I don't crate them when we are gone, so that makes a big difference too. Funny however if we go out to dinner or are going 1/2 hr or so, when we get back you might think we have been gone for days....
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yes we usually do, Andrea.. and you make valid points. I guess it would depend on "how" long extended period of time really is….If I relate this to my own dogs, while they love to be with us, they have no problem going off on their own to nap in the sun, look for squirrels, etc... they don't demand that they are under foot 24/7. And when we go out (mind you that we both work so they are used to use us being gone for a good part of the day)... it is never a problem. Of course too, I don't crate them when we are gone, so that makes a big difference too. Funny however if we go out to dinner or are going 1/2 hr or so, when we get back you might think we have been gone for days....
Right, I think weeks is too long…but probably it HAS to be that long for the dog to realize NOTHING he does is going to get the humans to give him attention. And I bet there will some REALLY interesting behaviors tried out to get attention....<shudder>
Querk is EXACTLY like Keoki...always has been. But I don't classify it as true Separation Anxiety because it is ONLY associated with a crate. I would first try to find out if the dog truly has "separation anxiety" or "crate anxiety" (for lack of a better term)....because I can't see how withholding attention from a dog in all situations could make him feel better about his crate.</shudder>
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So, does the entire family ever leave for several hours?
Yes, but for the most part only on weekends.
Seasonally, the kids play either basketball or soccer, and during those times the entire family is gone from about 8:30 AM until 1 or 2 PM {it's soccer season now}.
And on Sundays, we go to Mass and Sunday School so are gone typically from 9 AM - 12:30 - 1:00 PM.That's really about it, aside from the occasional special event.
To be honest, Keoki's behavior really began spiraling downhill QUICKLY in last August.
He'd had problems with being left home {always with the other dogs} and sleeping in his crate from the beginning. We'd worked through the summer with short periods in the crate, treats in the crate, feeding in the crate, making the crate comfy, etc. and had gotten him to at least sleep a few hours at night {if and only if he was "eased" into relaxing there}.
He had finally stopped {almost} shredding his night-time pillows.He NEVER came around to having us leave the house w/out returning to a completely destroyed crate, still occasionally urinating in it, etc.
In August most of the family took two short trips, one week gone, home one week, one week gone, home for good. The dogs were left home because our oldest two kids had to work and couldn't come along. They are 18 and 20 yrs old, and quite accustomed the the care and treatment of the dogs.
During those two weeks that we were gone, the dogs were crated at night AND when BOTH kids had to work. Neither of them worked all day every day, their schedules were varied, so the dogs weren't left alone 40 hours a week, but it was far more than they were accustomed to.Gypsy and Jazzy couldn't have been less affected.
Keoki crumbled.
Since that time he won't crate at. He lost what little ground we'd gained and wasn't sleeping all at night. If I remained near the crate, he'd sleep in fits. When he would settle in to sleep, he'd quietly whine the whole time until he'd drift off, but would start awake if I made the slightest movement and if I got caught moving toward the door all hell would break loose.I've tried leaving him in our "mudroom" uncrated when we left home, with Jazzy in her crate {she loves her crate, and I was concerned of them fighting}. His crate was in the room, and open. He had toys and a chewy. The evidence was that he still freaked out – paper toweling in crate was shredded and everywhere. He was agitated and whimpering when we came in, etc.
Last week he started NOT sleeping AT ALL. Digging at the crate {front and back}, shredding wildly, screaming even when I was in the room w/him.
THAT is the point at which I ran to the vet for help!
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Just, FTR…Pat and I usually agree on most things
but the suggestion to completely ignore the dog for an extended period of time makes me uncomfortable. We have to work really hard with Basenjis to keep that bond in place that keeps them from becoming *completely wild dogs...I would hesitate to do anything that would try to weaken the bond; or turn a separation anxiety problem into a fear/trust problem.That being said, I really hope this works for Keoki, and I am really anxious to hear how the progress is coming
This behaviorist does have working hands-on experience with wolves, so my thinking is she knows how the "wild dog" psyche works.
Basenjis are pack dogs, right? {PLEASE correct any misinformation! LOL as I know you will
much of it comes from Discovery channel, animal planet, etc LOL }So, when the leader of the pack returns to the pack, he doesn't start fawning all over the other dogs. He will ignore them, even as they approach to sniff and see where's he's been.
You can watch a wolf pack and KNOW which is the alpha based on his disinterest in the movements of the others, they however, pay close attention to whatever he is doing. He doesn't spend time making sure they all get positive attention from him. But the bond of the pack is strong.
The way that we are doing this shouldn't lend itself to a fear/trust issue because Keoki is still very much in the middle of his pack, every minute of every day. He's just not being fawned over. He's at our feet when we study, under my feet when I'm cooking {in fact, the little turd swiped a pancake from the counter right behind me just this morning}, in his special chair while we're watching TV. He is next to me on the floor now as I type this. His life should feel quite secure and safe, if a smidge less warm and fuzzy.
As to the two week period – well, we're already one day into it!! :rolleyes:
BUT, I will be in phone contact with the behaviorist every day or so with updates. If at any time she {or I} feel this is not working or is having a detrimental effect, we will change the plan to fit the situation.After the two weeks is up, we will take him back to the center where she will observe him again {this simply amounts to sitting in a chair, watching him and how he reacts responds to us as we sit and talk; she may stand up and walk across the room, toss a treat, etc. But it's very low key}.
The next step will be based on her observations and my comments at that time.
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I absolutely agree about the not fawning after arrival and near departure. But I don't understand about the rest...so if he is to get no attention..what did you do when he swiped the pancake? Do you speak to him to tell him not to do something? Or does "no attention" just mean no doting and fawning? My interpretation of "no attention" was you act as if he doesn't exist.
If "no attention" means when he screams in a crate or xpen, I ABSOLUTELY agree with that! -
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That sounds ideal! One sign of a good trainer, is someone who is willing and open to changing the plan if it isn't working -
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I absolutely agree about the not fawning after arrival and near departure. But I don't understand about the rest...so if he is to get no attention..what did you do when he swiped the pancake? Do you speak to him to tell him not to do something? Or does "no attention" just mean no doting and fawning? My interpretation of "no attention" was you act as if he doesn't exist.When he took the pancake, I quickly grabbed it away w/out saying a word. Just grabbed it and tossed it into the trash.
A few minutes later I'd left the room -- the infamous "just for a moment" -- he jumped up and took the spatula. Now, he's always been a counter-surfer, but not usually this determined. THAT coupled with the fact that he brought the spatula right to my feet to start to chew, makes me believe that this may be the attempt to get attention that she'd warned about. Again, I just picked up the spatula and tossed it in the sink. I didn't say a word, didn't tell him, "no", nothing. Just retrieved the spatula and returned to working in the kitchen. He stood there for a sec, then went to lie down.
When he tries to chew on something he shouldn't, a snap of the fingers is pretty much doing the trick, thus far. I imagine that will be less effective as we move through, at which point I will use words, only touching him as necessary to move him away, etc. -
When he took the pancake, I quickly grabbed it away w/out saying a word. Just grabbed it and tossed it into the trash.
A few minutes later I'd left the room – the infamous "just for a moment" -- he jumped up and took the spatula. Now, he's always been a counter-surfer, but not usually this determined. THAT coupled with the fact that he brought the spatula right to my feet to start to chew, makes me believe that this may be the attempt to get attention that she'd warned about. Again, I just picked up the spatula and tossed it in the sink. I didn't say a word, didn't tell him, "no", nothing. Just retrieved the spatula and returned to working in the kitchen. He stood there for a sec, then went to lie down.
When he tries to chew on something he shouldn't, a snap of the fingers is pretty much doing the trick, thus far. I imagine that will be less effective as we move through, at which point I will use words, only touching him as necessary to move him away, etc.
That all sounds good….maybe you are going to make a believer out of me
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poor baby-keoki….they are just like children.
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The more I read this thread, the more I think that Nala was very similar as a puppy and young dog. We "gave in" and let her sleep in our bed and it still took years before she stopped messing her crate (and quite honestly, she still gets upset in her crate if in for longer than she thinks necessary, LOL).
My hat is off to you, JM…and my heart goes out to you. I know Keoki will come around. -
When I went to an animal behaviorist at UC Davis here in CA to try to get help for Max, she told me that basenjis were her most difficult separation anxiety patients to deal with. Fortunately, his case was pretty mild. I think any info you post here on your experience will be very helpful for a lot of people. Thank you for "forum schooling" us in addition to your "home schooling"
You know, I've had a few people say to me that this "separation anxiety" or wariness of uncomfortable or unfamiliar situations is common in Basenjis and/or they are somewhat predisposed to it because of the primitive nature of the breed. And I've been questioned essentially as to why I don't just accept that and leave him be.
My question is – is "the breed is pre-disposed to that" behavior a real reason to NOT try to work them out of it, at least to the degree that they can function in a healthier way? I realize they are primitive, haven't been pets long etc. but at the same time they do need to function HERE in THIS world where they find themselves.
I'm NOT saying we should try to "work out" the natural, beautiful, quirky behaviors of the Basenji {or any breed}, but why not those behaviors or quirks which make their lives unpleasant for THEM?I LOVE that Keoki can be a real pain-in-my-ass, what I don't love is that HE panics at times and cannot cope with situations that he really SHOULD be able to cope with.
The kind of timidity and uncertainty he displayed when left to his own devices in an unfamiliar situation {vs having me direct his every step} would have gotten him killed if he were in the wild. It was not a cautious investigation of the environment, it was an emotional meltdown. Once we released him from the leash and walked across the room, he was done for.
There was no one else there, besides the behaviorist {he's not normally afraid of strangers or even strange places.....as long as he is leashed}, no other dogs present, no threat of any kind, except that we weren't holding on to him.
He doesn't behave that way at the vet {agained, leashed to me}, [he actually likes the vet's office] or anywhere else. ONLY when physically unattached from us. Then he tried to physically attach himself, like super-glue. He wouldn't even venture out the four or five feet necessary to pick up a beef tendon from the floor, that was no where near the behaviorist!I can accept a degree of separation anxiety, but this seems extreme to me.
So far the lack of attention doesn't seem to be traumatic to him. He's pretty much doing all his normal stuff – tossing his toys around, "fighting" with Jazz, dozing by the fire, getting under my feet, etc. After his few little attention getting attempts yesterday, he's actually settled down a lot. {The behaviorist did say to expect that behavior to continue through the weekend, so we'll see if he has anything else up his sleeve!}. He's just a lot calmer as he moves about the house.
{It's about killing the kids, though, who DESPERATELY want to pet their puppy!
, but they all seem to grasp the process and are doing their very best to remember}Oh -- not sure if I ever gave a run-down on this woman's credentials, and it may give an idea why I am so confident in her ability to assess the dog accurately and prescribe an appropriate treatment plan:
Her mother is a long-time breeder of Norwegian elkhounds, and she {behaviorist} has over 20 yrs of show-handling experience. Her behavior-specialty is predators and she has worked with orcas, lions, and has lived with wolves. There's no way for me to know the number of dogs she's worked with over the years, but my best guess would be that the number would be in the thousands {even if she only worked with 2/week, over the course of 15+ yrs that'd be 1500 dogs -- I'm not sure how long she's been doing behavior therapy, and I'm sure she's worked more than 2 dogs a week!}
Anyway, that was a tangent, wasn't it?
I'm not sure what got me going, LOL, or even what my original point was. Hmmm, I think I'll just post and let it go....... -
JazzysMom, I am so impressed with your dedication to this problem. Keoki is very lucky to have such a loving family. I don't think what your asking for is to much for any dog to comply with. He will get it in time. I think boys are more needy anyway
I believe there is no 100% right way to do anything for every dog. You have a good start and a dedicated breeder and behaviorist to help you through this. And you can always vent here.
Your in our thoughts!! Good Luck.
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Okay, So Keoki sleeps now in an ex-pen, no crate. The pen is set up so it's probably 6 ft. by 2 ft. Jazzy's crate sits right next to it so he can see her.
Gypsy has slept on a large pillow just outside the pen. I always try to make sure that there is enough space between Gypsy's bed and the kennel, so that none of her pillow sticks into the pen. There's not a lot of room, though, as you can see from the photos.Today the whole family went to soccer; we were gone about 2 hours. I left Keoki in the pen with four stuffed toys, a rawhide chew, and a cow kneecap to chew on.
I had {apparently foolishly} put his night-time pillow on top of the ex-pen. The pen is 3 ft tall.
TWO HOURS.
Somehow he managed to pull Gypsy's pillow through the teeny tiny squares of the ex-pen. He also got to the pillow atop the pen and shredded it from below.
See photos.Surely, two hours for an almost 9 mos old puppy shouldn't be too much to ask w/out returning to THIS level of destruction, esp. given that he had LOTS in his crate to keep him busy. Now, poor old Gypsy has no bed.
I don't know that it's worth buying any more beds for any of the dogs until we get this problem with Keoki solved.
IMG]http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n135/JoNell_63/Keokisx-penwithpillow.jpg
