@Saving thank you very much for the suggestions!
A diagnosed biter
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Just a further note-(I was a little annoyed at the trainer that said don't socialize him)-I'm sorry B's are far from the second dumbest dog. I don't know of any other dog that will take two weeks to figure out how to get out to the chicken coop so he could have some fresh meat, or figure out how to open doors to get what (s)he wants, or think about how to play on the human's will. Also, some people are just not threatening to dogs at all, this may be why he ignores some people and nips others. I'm taking it that he has not drawn blood?
I agree for the most part with what the trainer said. Arlene, I don't think most pet people have the skills and/or the interest in rehabbing a dog like this; and I think for the most part an inexperienced owner would be putting people and dogs at risk unless working REALLY closely with an experienced trainer. I would advise the exact same course of "treatment" based on what I know of this situation.
The old "dumbest" dog chestnut is based on a test that evaluated "easily trained with traditional methods"…not best at problem solving...I don't know why anyone even wastes any energy worrying about that ridiculous study.
You can't socialize a dog until you convince him that he is safe, and doesn't need to use his mouth to protect himself...IMO, that hasn't happened with this dog at all...he has been placed in obviously 10, probably more, situations where he didn't feel safe, and comfortable...having people pitch treats at him isn't going to change that. He needs to be completely managed FIRST and then in time start expanding his opportunities.
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When I take my furkids out, I ALWAYS bring training treats for my use and especially to give to people to give my dogs. I would rather people give treats then pet them. If I don't have training treats - I ask those who are inquisitive to just ignore the dogs - sorry, but I don't want anyone getting scratched or . . . snapped at - makes me comfortable.
On the other hand, have you taken Tucker to obedience training? I've just completed the Intermediate with Duke at PetSmart. (Duke's a wild child) But I have learned some interesting techniques for distraction. I practice with him whenever and wherever. Something to think about . . . because you are lucky, so far that you have not suffered any consequences on 11 bites! Good luck to you both!
Just FTR, I have been bitten by a dog as I was handing him treats. Something that I learned just recently, is that it is more effective for the owner to feed the dog treats as a stranger approaches. With a dog that is at all questionable, a stranger offering a treat can be really conflicting, and will draw a hungry dog towards something that they would rather move away from.
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I do not agree with this trainer-what she is saying is that there is no training an old dog and this is NOT TRUE!
Arlene-I would respectfully
disagree on this point. My interpretation is that this dog has other issues that doesn't make it possible to recondition Tucker to accept a normal social atmosphere. Given Tucker's past & his temperment I would agree with the trainer. I absolutely agree that you can teach older dogs to be conditioned to certain situations! However, dog are much like many humans that are just NOT social & overall they're timid or shy or anxious. Some people are just uncomfortable in certain social situations & no matter how many shrinks they see this will always be the case. It is part of their genetic personal make up. I believe dogs are very similar. Some dogs love human attention, some tolerate human attention, & some can really do without attention, & some just can not tolerate attention.I think my dog is similar to Tucker she just IS a certain way & some situations give her more anxiety than others. In order to keep my dog safe I need to manage the situation and I chose not to force her to deal with every situation. I've accepted that she will not be comfortable with certain people no matter how much training I do with her.
Just my 2 cents!
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I agree…maybe you just have to have a dog that is like that to really understand. It happens with such irregularity, and such unpredictablility that it is very difficult to retrain, because you don't know what triggers it.
This kind of situation isn't about training the dog, it is about training the person to not put the dog in a situation where it feels the need to protect itself.
The Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson is a perfect explanantion of this._
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I disagree with you also Arlene… and the reason, reading the post about this boy, it is pretty clear that 1. This dogs has had some hard times and 2. IMO he was/is not of the greatest temperament to begin with... he makes "snap" decisions on liking or disliking, it is immediate and there is no changing their mind... and it could be body language that is helping make that decision but the dog is taking immediate control of the situation. Training is one thing, this dog clearly has a history of biting....
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For those interested in the circumstances of the previous bites, please see this link to my older thread:
http://basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?t=1624
Bite No. 10 occurred when I wasn't around. I had gone on a short trip to the airport to pick up my brother, sisinlaw and niece. Tucker was at home with my parents who Tucker knows and have never shown aggression towards and KNOW about Tucker and how he has to be treated. Enter stepbrother. My SB doesn't know Tucker that well but knows that he bites or has bitten. Anyway, long story short, Jeremy left and Tucker tried to leave with him and Jeremy pushed Tucker back. Chomp!
Bite No. 11 was described earlier in this thread.
Some of your posts have made me feel like I am mismanaging my dog, but I really don't feel that way. Owning a Basenji involves just as much of a learning curve as raising a child, methinks. Bite 1 happens, you do what you need to do to prevent Bite 2. Bite 2 happens and involves different circumstances and you do what you have to do to avoid Bite 3. So on, and so on. I didn't raise this Basenji, I adopted him. Don't lose sight of that. Aside from what I am told, that's all of know of his previous 4 years. Think about adopting a 21 year old young adult. Trainable, yes, but to what extent? In another year, Tucker will by my age equivelent. I can assure you that I'M not changing my ways! And I have the ability to reason.
Tucker has this radar, I've noticed. He can see a dog 100ft away and I can look at Tucker and already have a good idea if Tucker will bite that dog once Tucker sees him/her. MOST people I encounter have dogs. How is one to know if it's the dog or the person that Tucker doesn't like until they come face to face? Perhaps the face to face, when unnecessary, is best avoided. The only way to be 100% sure that Tucker isn't into 'protect mode' would be to keep him away from the things that OBVIOUSLY make him lash out.
As for my management, I've been keeping Tucker away from people for a long time, and, lo and behold, no incidents AND he's been a lot more calm at home. He stopped peeing all over the place, doesn't bit my friends as they walk in the door (only happened once as described in above referenced thread), and he has even made great progress with getting in people's face while they are trying to eat (we oftentimes eat in front of the TV with food close to Tucker reach). The passerby at the beach was a lapse on my part, admittedly, but I simply don't have eyes on every side of my head. If you were there, you would understand because I told the people with me to keep their eye on him and to help me be aware of anyone that tried to approach. THAT person, the one I missed, didn't get bit and Tucker obviously didn't feel the need to be protective in that given situation. The girl that got bit this past Sunday was one of the first times I've tried to reintegrate socialization so you can imagine my frustration. Typically the owners don't try to pet him, they just want to dogs to say hello. At this point, more people have been bitten than dogs, but all have been separate (people get bit when no dogs are around, dogs get bit when people don't interact with Tucker at my instruction). Most people think a dog can take care of hisself as long as one is not massively bigger than the other. The Sunday incident was the FIRST time tucker has managed to sniff a dog and not bit him, and then bite the Owner who so longed to befriend Tucker. Thinking back, there were two girls and a dog. Tucker prolly saw we were outnumbered from the start and I didn't even think about that at the time. It's these things that simetimes escape me and afterwards, I want to kick myself in the a$$.
But anyway… I'm getting all defensive and probably have no reason to... I guess I feel like Tucker.
PS (I just found out the bulk of Tucker's past after this last bite. I had asked before, but the information about what happened PRIOR to his previous Owner was never disclosed to me. His tail was the only evidence I had that aduse was likely for him at a young age. 3 or 4 rapid succession foster homes would indicate early discipline problems or a bunch of idiot dog owners who know nothing of basenjis except that they are darn cute!...probably the latter. Most likely a pet store dog on top of all that.)
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I don't intend to make you feel like you are mismanaging my dog...but I have a dog just like this...she has bitten two people and drawn blood, and at least as many where she snapped and made grazing contact.
She doesn't get to meet new people unless I can completely control the situation...meaning I keep her on a leash...I have to know that the people she is meeting will completely follow my instructions (most people at that point don't care to meet her). I don't walk in situations where I would need to tie her somewhere, because it would be impossible for me to completely monitor the situation. She doesn't get to sniff new dogs, she doesn't get to play with new dogs. She certainly doesn't get to be around ANY children other than our own child, and even then, only under supervison. I have to be very careful where I leave her if we have to have someone care for dogs....there are very few people I trust to keep her safe from herself. Often, if I can't supervise, she is crated.
So, yes her life is VERY controlled, and very limited...it certainly isn't the ideal perfect doggy life...but it is better than euthanasia, I am sure she would agree. That is what I mean when I say that this kind of dog, and the amount of rehab required is more than most pet people want......most people want a nice dog that can be around other dogs, and other people and not have to be a constant concern.
With a dog like this, you don't have the luxury of learning slowly. The dog MUST be protected from himself 100% right now. You have to assume he WILL bite, and then count yourself lucky if you slip up and he doesn't bite.
I do argree with Arlene, that you should seek out a behaviorist that will teach you how to manage his behavior better. You can improve his attention to you, but the situation will always have to managed. -
Then he was adopted by a couple in Chicago. They told me he was a good dog, never biting or anything like that UNTIL they moved to Boston and the mom got pregnant. Tucker then bit two children (because the children ran at him waving arms and whatnot) and also bit the daddy. I imagine he was protective of the pregnant mother. They feared that Tucker would bite the child, so they, too, put him up for adoption.
Along comes me, who adopts Tucker from BRATAm I to understand that Tucker had bitten three different people and BRAT adopted him out anyway?
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Instead of having "strangers" give the dog a cookie, try having them toss the cookie to the dog and then walk away.
If they are in your home, have them go to a place away from the dog and not look at Tucker.
Have them randomly toss a cookie toward Tucker, without looking at him.
Do this until Tucker comes over and sniffs the treat tosser.
Then, again, without looking at Tucker directly, have the visitor drop a treat
by the chair.
Just do this until Tucker is able to relax with a new person coming into your home, NOT looking at Tucker, and giving him small treats.something wonderful like small pieces of cheese, or nuked hot dogs, something he gets at no other time.
Once he is good with being calm when the person is sitting, have the person stand…once is he calm with that, have the person, walk slowly around the room, but not 'charging' Tucker.
IMO, this boy has learned to bite first and this has worked for him...
He has kept people away from him and that is the bad learning he has had.
Teaching him that strangers can give good treats in a non threating way, might be a way to start him relearning to trust.
It won't be quick, but it can help.
Getting a trainer who knows damaged dogs and basenjis and having them come to your home, eval the dog and help you would be the way to go.
The above might help in the mean time. -
Dear TuckerVA,
My boyfriend Brian & I are hard core Cesar fans. We have the book, rent all the episodes from Netflix and I have been to his seminar in Beverly Hills. At his seminar the woman in the seat behind me was the owner of two basenjis an traveled the 3 hours to learn from Cesar. Just from personal experience we have used some of his training methods and they have worked with our basenji!!!
I may not agree with "everything" he says we do think he is amazing. His formula is simple 50% exercise 25% discipline and last 25% affection. We live by his formula and trust me it shows in our dog.
If Cesar is going to be in your area I say take advantage of it. Think of it this way if you get accepted you get a free session with Cesar, you might be on T.V., your getting a different perspective on your problem, and if you disagree with his methods you never have to use them. Good luck to you and your dog. I dont have experience with a bite dog so I'm sorry I dont have any tips there, I just wanted to comment on the Cesar thing you were thinking about. -
My only concern with anyone who uses harsh methods on an already damaged dog, is that it just makes the dog react in an aggressive manner.
Don't get me wrong, Ceser M. has saved many dogs who needed help, but imo, he is harsh in his training.
Some dogs handle this…some don't.
A dog who is already having issues with people,again imo, needs kindness and to relearn that humans can give good things. -
My only concern with anyone who uses harsh methods on an already damaged dog, is that it just makes the dog react in an aggressive manner.
Don't get me wrong, Ceser M. has saved many dogs who needed help, but imo, he is harsh in his training.
Some dogs handle this…some don't.
A dog who is already having issues with people,again imo, needs kindness and to relearn that humans can give good things.Ditto! I am pretty sure that Cesar's methods would completely ruin this dog.
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Just FTR, I have been bitten by a dog as I was handing him treats. Something that I learned just recently, is that it is more effective for the owner to feed the dog treats as a stranger approaches. With a dog that is at all questionable, a stranger offering a treat can be really conflicting, and will draw a hungry dog towards something that they would rather move away from.
Oh that's terrible! Certainly, I can see caution in the wind with this experience. Guess you have to know your kids before you'd just let people interact. However, with my two, Duke is an instant friend to whoever has a goody for hiim. That is why I offered this tidbit of social interaction. I liken Sharron's advice to toss a "cookie/treat" to dog. No way for dog to directly come in contact with hand or fingers. I have no experience with raising adult dogs. Both of mine were pups when acquired.
TuckerVA - You have advice here from very experienced trainers - and Basenji owners to boot! You're doing a great job caring for Tucker. Kudos to you for moving forward in seek of the best advice and training you can get. I sense you and Tucker are bonded well together. Prayers that he senses to understand your mission for him to have a good, happy and continued life with you.
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I must tell you, having been learning about dogs that are "reactive"…things you don't even notice can set them off.
Like someone leaning over to greet them, instead of standing up straight, can set a dog off.
Someone with a smell the dog has as a bad one...that type of thing...can set the dog up to fail and we aren't even aware of it.
I have lived with biting dogs...I tried very hard to keep them from "issues" that would set them off...but if you don't know, then its tough.
I really do suggest you get a professional dog behaviorist who work only in positive ways and have them come eval your boy. -
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I would give your dog the chance to have a behaviorist/trainer work with him for a couple of months.
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I dont think Cesar is a harsh trainer with all the dogs. I have been watching all the episodes an his style varies from each situation. For example just the other day I saw an episode with a Shiba Inu he barely touched and he was very gentle. Or the episode where he told the woman she did not need to yell at her dog to get the point across. He can be a gentle trainer if he feels it fits the bill.
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@vstripe:
I dont think Cesar is a harsh trainer with all the dogs. I have been watching all the episodes an his style varies from each situation. For example just the other day I saw an episode with a Shiba Inu he barely touched and he was very gentle. Or the episode where he told the woman she did not need to yell at her dog to get the point across. He can be a gentle trainer if he feels it fits the bill.
I do think that Cesar has a lot of common sense advice for dog owners, and a few useful techniques for the type of training I like to teach. But it is absolutely punishment based training…that works great for a lot of dogs. Not for most Basenjis, though. I would much rather go with a reward based training program, you can get the same results, and have a dog that respects you because all good things comd from you, not because they are afraid of you.
The shows that I have watched are heavily edited to make every case a happy ending...remember, it is TV you don't see what training techniques are used when the camera is off. I suspect Cesar has made an effort to appear "more gentle" because he is receiving so much criticism from the more progressive positive reinforcement training community; and because his main TV star competition, Tamar Gellar is gaining great notoriaty as a gentle, and effective trainer.
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Am I to understand that Tucker had bitten three different people and BRAT adopted him out anyway?
The information that BRAT received/I saw on the site, was that he had only bitten one person, a 14yo boy. When I emailed the previous owner yesterday, I think she slipped up because she made reference to Tucker biting a 10yo boy AND her husband. I have mixed feelings about the previous owners. They had Tucker for 3 years so I would ASSUME that they dealt with him okay. If you're not B material, you know pretty much right away!
Apparently, the biting was enough for them to put him up for adoption to 'protect' their baby to be. I emailed with her extensively initially, before and after I picked Tucker up. It was always that he had only been one person. (Mind you, she also told me Tucker could only go 5 or 6 hours before he had to go out to take a leak, I've had him go up to 14hrs now (example: 7pm until 9am next morning, not 14 hours of awake time).I imagine that BRAT didn't get all of the facts, at least not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, if you get my drift…and I imagine there is some level of embellishment from the previous owner who wants to get rid of the dog.
I think there is a bit of a disconnect with BRAT, but it's understandable. While a noble organization, they simply don't have staffing required for every interviewer to know every dog and what goes on in the foster homes. Tucker isn't going to bite you once he's been introduced properly. Therefore, the fosterer's experience is that Tucker is not a biter. Therefore, the fosterer only knows what the previos owner tells them. Therefore, the person who interviewed me only knows what the fosterer knows and what the previous owner has told them. By the time the information gets to me, its saturated and probably 'not a big issue since it was an isolated incident'...
So, to answer your question, YES! BRAT adopted him out anyway.
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So all of you want to protect a dog who has bitten on previous occasions by not socializing him?? Sorry, doesn't make sense to me-as I said this was in MY opinion, without seeing the dog, and I DID say he should see a behaviourist-not a trainer-two different people. A trainer will correct the behaviour-a behaviourist will figure out what the behaviour is caused from and figure out a way to alleviate the root of the problem.
