Possible backyard breeder/puppy milll

[DebraDownSouth]

I suspect this is not a new topic… might want to check out this thread:

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?12425-Anyone-ever-buy-a-puppy-from-Hilltop-Meadows-in-Caldwell-TX

[seaslugg]

I found out that Candyce is her mother. I don't know if there are any legal issues about posting the woman's name here, but I wish someone else had when I was trying to find out about her. I eventually found the thread about Candyce and starting putting things together. The more I found out, the worse it got. Luckily I got my deposit back.

[tanza]

Just curious, when you talk about health testing, did you check the results for yourself at www.offa.org? Regardless of who the breeder is… always check the results yourself

[seaslugg]

Yes, I did. There could have been more done, but there was really a fair amount. I felt comfortable in that respect. But I felt uneasy enough to keep researching her. I knew I wasn't going to be getting a show stopper but I hoped it would be happy and healthy. I admit that I moved too quickly, but I also knew that if I found something wrong I could always back out. There wasn't anything concrete. Some was heresay, and it was an old thread. But things kept adding up. Then, with the puppies only being 6-1/2 weeks old, I saw her ad:
Bambi is an AKC tri basenji. She has recently had
her last litter and has been spayed. She wants to
be a true lap dog. She has only been outside
but uses a doggy door so she is trained with that.
She can get aggressive around other females but
may be calmer now that she is spayed. She
tended to act up the most when in heat as most
females do. Would prefer not to ship but would be
possible. She is up to date on rabies and boosters
and wormed regularly. Call/text for more pics and
information.

I posted this because a couple of puppies were still available. It would be nice to stop people from buying from breeders like this. I told her I didn't want anything to do with buying a puppy from a person like her. I've been lucky enough to find a reputable breeder with some lovely pups available, and I'm going to check them out Saturday. Maybe I should have originally posted to the old thread but I thought people would be looking in this forum for puppies for sale and would see this.

[tanza]

Glad to hear that you found another breeder, care to share? Many of us are related by our Basenjis. You will find in the Basenji world, breeders all know other breeders (responsible ones that is)…. and if we have not heard of them, chances are they are not responsible. You were lucky that your deposit was refunded... that usually doesn't happen

[seaslugg]

Ummm…I will post pics and share after Saturday. I want my pick. x)

[tanza]

@seaslugg:

Ummm…I will post pics and share after Saturday. I want my pick. x)

Sounds good… but I do have to say that most breeders pick for you unless there are 2 about the same.... most breeders try to place the pup that is most suitable to the new home as they know the temperaments of the pups and will try to place in a home that would be best suited.. .... and most don't get to pick? If there are requirements such has they have a male/female and what the reasons are... breeders try to respect those choices... but in the end... if there is a male/female already in the home, most usual choice is opp sex.....

[seaslugg]

Yes, you are absolutely right.

[Coti]

I would like to make a comment about this because I find it upsetting that people can be so quick to judge a person without knowing more information. I am the person you were going to be purchasing a puppy from. When you initially inquired on the pup you were concerned about the amount of white the pup had. I took several pictures for you and the day I was going to send pictures of adults that you requested, you had already looked at others and were ok with it. Then, I continued to send you pictures and weekly videos of your puppy so that you could see him growing. Many breeders do not update their buyers as much as I do. Yes, when the pups were 6 1/2 weeks old, I placed the mother up for adoption for $300. She would not let the puppies be anywhere around her anymore because they were eating regular food. Many breeders as I have found, will remove them as early as 3 weeks just so that the mother will "tighten up", but I do not do that as I do not believe it is healthy for a puppy to start eating any other kind of food at that point. It just so rarely happened that when the mother was in labor (at 10pm at night) after having one pup she started having difficulties. At 12am, I took her into the vet where she had to have a c-section because a puppy was stuck in the birth canal. This is very rare for basenjis. The puppy had done damage to her uterus so I had her spayed because I didn't feel it necessary to put her through anymore risk with future litters. The $300 was to help offset the $750 vet bill I received for it being after hours, a c-section, and spayed. I am sorry that you felt uncomfortable purchasing the puppy from me. You made me feel so horrible, even though I had done nothing wrong, that I did refund your deposit. Even though, as it was mentioned - most breeders do not do that. I am not a big breeder. I now have two females and a male. My male is great basenji quality and I'm sorry if any pictures you have seen do not justify that for you. My mother does also raise basenjis and unfortunately because of this forum has had one bad review and many breeders attacked her. If anyone would like references from the people who have purchased basenjis from us, please let me know. It's amazing the number of people we have call each year that have been referred to us by their friends because of how wonderful their dog has been. The good greatly outweighs the few who post negative comments on here. Your puppy found a great home in Minneapolis and I get frequent updates from them with pics and comments of how wonderful and smart he is. The mother also now resides in Austin, with a retired couple who have two other basenjis.

[Coti]

I would also like to add, that my mother nor I run a puppy mill. Our basenjis are AKC and fanconi tested. I only have basenjis. My mother does have shelties as well. She is retired and this is what she loves. It is ok to raise two different breeds. She's done it for 15 years! It is not about "the almighty dollar" as someone quoted. If it were, we would both raise the price of our pups substantially and I surely wouldn't be refunding deposits. But we feel that our prices are more than fair for pet quality basenjis. We do not show, have never showed, and do not have any intentions of it. And there is nothing wrong with that! That in no way makes us irresponsible breeders.

[DebraDownSouth]

Someone who breeds dogs to sell as pets, who doesn't show, are, in fact, the definition for backyard breeders. With all the basenjis in rescue thanks to puppymills and byb breeders, I beg to differ that "there is nothing wrong with that." From my point of view, there is EVERYTHING wrong with that.

If your dogs are Fanconi tested, chd, heart, thyroid, CERF... not just one but ALL the dogs you breed, and for generations back, then I'd say not horrible. But frankly, I'd rather give MY money to a breeder who is doing it to create the healthiest AND toward breed standard, willing to show and do other work (obedience, agility, lure coursing etc) to keep their dogs in working condition.

So we'll have to disagree on whether backyard breeding to make/sell pets is irresponsible.

[Coti]

@DebraDownSouth

So you believe that everyone that purchases a basenji should only purchase them with the intent to show them? No one should be able to enjoy a basenji as a pet only? If someone purchased a different breed to use to help with cattle or simply as a guard dog, are their intentions wrong because they aren't going to show the dog? I suppose those people who have pets as a companion should just not own a dog period.

We will agree to disagree and I'm fine being labeled a "backyard breeder". I am not hurting this breed by bringing someone the joy of owning a basenji. Just as the breeders of other dogs do the same. There is a difference in a "backyard breeder" and a puppy mill and I do not in any way operate a puppy mill.

[DebraDownSouth]

I think people who purchase PETS from responsible breeders are fine. No, you don't have to show pets. Nor should you BREED pets, unless there are generations of testing behind them and you test them and test their offspring and have contracts requiring spay/neuter or all the forementioned tests done. I am not happy with pet breeders... but I admit there may be a place in some breeds for pet breeders who do everything else right other than show or working stock. You do none on those from what I see.

[tanza]

Responsible breeders breed to better the breed not just to sell puppies. Breeder typically breed for themselves and keep a puppy that they show and/or do performance events and then consider putting them into their breeding program. Also IMO, responsible breeders go to outside males to breed to their bitches not just keep breeding what you own to each other. That said 90% of my puppies are placed in wonderful pet homes... If an owner wishes to show or do performance events, wonderful, if not, that is wonderful too. After the breeder(s) make their picks of the litter, the home for the rest is the most important thing.... Responsible breeders don't just test for Fanconi, they test for PRA, do eye exams, have hips done, thyroid tested... it is not a pick and choose what test they do. And they breed to the written standard with Health and Temperament the most important thing. I have never made a profit on breeding, 99% lose money... I just hope to break even.

[Buddys Pal]

Well stated Tanza.

[Buddys Pal]

Also, in lieu of beginning a new thread under the same heading, I recently found this on petfinder. I will copy what I saw as well as submit the link. I saved it as at the time I found it Basenji Forums was under construction....Daisy, born in Nov. '05, is one of two Basenjis we have in our rescue from the same breeder and both have Fanconi. These two gals are great examples of why you need to DEMAND proof of parental Fanconi testing that is now available before buying a puppy from a breeder. Since Daisy has Fanconi, at best both of her parents are carriers of this serious and expensive hereditary disease that is preventable through careful breeding. Daisy is a product of Mountain Springs Basenjis in Anza which has usurped the name Cambria for years and has a line of Basenjis that, according to knowledgeable Basenji people, is LOADED with Fanconi. Daisy is looking for an angel with a big heart and a big wallet to help her deal with this deadly condition. Her mom is Cambria's Heather of Anza and her dad is Cambria's Ti-An2a Panda Boy. If you purchased a Basenji from Anza, please contact us to share information. [(https://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/16574410)

[tanza]

@Buddys-Pal Keep in mind that there was no Fanconi test in '05. The linkage test came out in '07....

HOWEVER, there is no reason to ever again produce Fanconi in Basenjis... There is a direct DNA test and as Buddys-Pal pointed out, look for the test results yourself, they are public at www.offa.org

[Amy trainer 1]

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