Working Dog Basenji Pups Waiting list

[Woofless]

@GeorgiaK9:

HI and I am sorry but I did not see your name…it sounds like you have a great situation for hunting B's up there and I envy you. Personally, I think a good hunting B will out work most other typical gun dogs. My B's consistently outwork pointers and labs...they just do not have the endurance. I also think the intelligence and nose of the hunting basenjis is better. I can't see myself working with another hunter. The only drawback is coat...without a hunting vest, they freeze their butts off. My B's hunt well in the snow but they need good waterproof coats.

I plan to keep this going for as long as possible. I just do not know if I will have the time. My business of training dogs keeps me very busy plus we travel each and every month all over the US and in Europe training handlers. I just cannot say for certain if I will be able to do this in the near future. I guess it depends on demand.

Jeff

I'm Danielle by the way, sorry. I believe you and my boss had a phone conversation a couple years ago when I first started apprenticing with him, if that might ring a bell?

One thing I've wondered about is working a Basenji in tall or thick cover, like the prairie & brome grasses we have up here? My "real" hunting dog is an Epagneul Breton (aka French Brittany) and while they are absolute little sticks of dynamite with twice the stamina of a bigger dog…..they are a compact 30-40 lb dog and they can completely disappear in tall cover if they get 15 feet away from you. Especially the more common red & white dogs, they blend in with the grass.....mine is black roan (French standard has always allowed black; AKC standard was changed when breed was first imported here)....but it can still be tough to keep track of where she is.

On the other hand, her shorter stature makes it easier for her to burrow under dense cover like brome, whereas I've seen long legged Pointers get tangled up and worn out from trying to go over it. And there's always beeper collars & GPS collars that'll help you keep track of the dog....so I would imagine as long as the Basenji had the passion & energy to push through tough cover they would do fine.

So your dogs hunt in the snow with just a vest on? No boots? LOL mine absolutely turn into whiny babies if it's too cold & snowy out....under 15 degrees or so they won't walk in the snow except to potty.

You've got me thinking about this....do you think there will be any available pups out of this litter or are they spoken for already?

[GeorgiaK9]

Hi Danielle and I do remember! Nice to hear from you!

You are correct about the tall grass. I lost the B's constantly in CA during fall hunts. I used the astro GPS system by Garmin for that reason alone. Frankly, I think the B's use it to their advantage to get in close and then with a sudden burst of speed, close the gap for a kill if possible. I know Axel used this tactic to kill turkey during fall hunts.

The snow is not a big deal as long as it is not too cold and they are running. The hunt seems to make them pretty oblivious until they get really tired.

We have Phoenix and Kaden scheduled for the rest of their tests on Tuseday and Phoenix will also get an X-ray of her babies. We should no how many than. We only have a couple spoken for and that is if they test well for detection work. For hunting, most of the litter should do well.

I am going to have a Flicker page link for parents and upcoming pup photos very soon.

Jeff

[lvoss]

Health tests especially hip x-rays and thyroid testing are not accurate on pregnant bitches due to the physiological changes of pregnancy.

[GeorgiaK9]

We are are counting pups with the X-ray not hips. Did not know about the thyroid test though.

[DebraDownSouth]

Wow, son of a gun. I am an idiot. I never thought about a GSP tracking on a dog and it's so logical of a use makes me feel faint. I have very very few hunter friends, okay maybe none. And none that use dogs. What a great idea. The joy of message boards– you find out things others probably have known for years and you might never have learned.

Ivoss-- I wasn't suggesting he do it now, just so you know. In fact, some research on xrays of dogs indicate they are dangerous for pregnant dogs-- just like humans-- early in pregnancy and that because of the unknown factors, probably best left til last week if you need one.

[eeeefarm]

@DebraDownSouth:

I never thought about a GSP tracking on a dog and it's so logical of a use makes me feel faint..

It strikes me that this would be a boon for anyone who walks a dog off leash in wooded or bushy areas, or has a dog that is an "escape artist". It would certainly make finding a lost or escaped dog much, much easier! (good for kids, too!) Oops! We can't get it in Canada. Bummer!

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=8576&ra=true

Oh, and I see something much less expensive for lost dogs…..

https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=68084

Oops again, it's an add on…..should have read that first....

[lvoss]

I wasn't suggesting that you said tesing should be done immediately, Debra. Jeff said he was taking both dogs on Tuesday for all the remaining testing. That to me implies hips, thyroid, and eyes which didn't make sense to me since the testing isn't best done during pregnancy.

[DebraDownSouth]

Somehow I missed going back to read his post after the GSP part (excitement and forgot to go back). Yep, waste of money for accuracy.

However, having just learned he has shock collars on his dogs in the field, you can all be sure that I would never ever recommend anyone to him for training. Quite the opposite. Says it all.

[GeorgiaK9]

OMG, hysteria rises again.

[eeeefarm]

I'm not surprised that someone training hunting dogs uses an e-collar, since that is pretty much what they were invented for. It is a very effective tool for communicating at a distance, and if used correctly (aye, there's the rub!) is not at all abusive. I've been using an e-collar for off leash work the last three years, and I can honestly say it has improved my relationship with my Basenji immensely. He wears it exclusively for off leash work, and at no other time. It has turned him into a real "farm dog", who can go out and about with me or my husband whenever we have chores to do, and he absolutely loves the freedom he has gained from it. I find that when he is loose he is much more attentive…...and not because he is getting shocked, either. He seldom receives a correction, and when he does it is usually a slight tingle (he and I can perceive the sensation at the same level......just enough to say "did I feel something"?). Anything more is reserved for emergencies, and yes, it does interrupt a potentially dangerous cat or critter chase, for which I do not apologize. I would absolutely not recommend an e-collar to anyone unwilling to take the time to learn how to use it properly, or to anyone with a short temper, because there is definitely potential for abuse.......as there is with almost any form of restraining a dog.

[tlish]

i haven't met anyone with working dogs who doesn't use e-collars. the correction can be very mild - i've felt it myself to see what it was like. most models also have a tone only correction to just give the dog an audio reminder. i would guess that most professional dog handlers use these correctly with no harm to the dogs.

[DebraDownSouth]

Previous post: We have Phoenix and Kaden scheduled for the rest of their tests on Tuseday

@GeorgiaK9:

We are are counting pups with the X-ray not hips. Did not know about the thyroid test though.

So what tests? Can't CERF, not hips, doubt cardiac. So by "rest of their tests" you meant just the thyroid? Sigh.

[DebraDownSouth]

And I absolutely do not recommend an e-collar for anyone other than critical life threatening HAVE to situations such as snake problems and perhaps rock eating. If you don't have to do something, if your dog will probably DIE without using one, fine. Otherwise, I have seen the excuses and lauding of the device and read enough research to believe fully it is the tool for trainers too lazy to train without pain. Research has shown repeatedly that sound collars and those without ANY PAIN, even citronella, work as well if the dog is properly trained before. You bet I could slap an e collar on my child, husband or dog and get faster results. I'd rather do it right and have good results. I want no relationship built on pain or fear of pain. Silly me actually started to post links to studies, but I have also come to believe 100 percent that people who justify e-collars aren't going to change– so done with this. You and Jeff have fun together.

[DebraDownSouth]

@tlish:

i haven't met anyone with working dogs who doesn't use e-collars.

I'd suggest you expand your contacts. I know many who do, but i know many many more who do NOT.

[DebraDownSouth]

@GeorgiaK9:

OMG, hysteria rises again.

Ah yes, anyone who disagrees with e-collars is hysterical–- never mind research. Never mind that in many countries they are ILLEGAL and OMG... hope you are sitting down, really, THEY SURVIVE and have kept on working and training without them. OMG. I know, reality bites.

Sorry folks, I am done with the thread. Breeds with no testing, thinks that he is above reproach or can withstand any scrutiny as if it is just fine, trains with shock collar then claims POSITIVE TRAINING methods. Sometimes you just gotta walk away.

[Voodoo]

Although I never used those collars, I don't find it animal abuse to use them if used in a correct way. Even better then those citronelle collars (wich I think should be illegal and will 'hurt' the dog more then an e-collar). If you need to work with a dog off-leash, at greater distances, it is simply the best, quickest and safest way to do so. You don't have to scare the hell out of them by using them, you can adjust them so that you can give really subtle corrections, both with a light shock or a sound. And if used correctly, a shock should be rarely given. I even know people who kind of use them as a clicker, both with sound or with a little tickle. Not unpleasant for the dog, and works even the dog is 300meters away from you.

[GeorgiaK9]

Little help from a moderator here? This is becoming a little psycho now.

[eeeefarm]

I know this is a controversial subject for a lot of people. However, from my own experience I have to conclude that e-collars are perfectly fine when used correctly. How many threads do we see on here about "door darting" and "escape artist" Basenjis that are impossible to easily catch if they accidentally get loose? How often is the advice given that you can't trust a Basenji off leash? My guy is infinitely safer because he is used to being off leash. When I have a "senior moment" (happens more frequently than I would like these days) and open the door for him without remembering his collar, he doesn't get all excited at his "freedom" because he is out loose 4 or 5 times every day. I just say "Perry, you forgot your collar" and he comes back so I can put it on. No drama, no adrenaline, and no escaped Basenji running down the road. He does not fear the collar, and he does not fear me. The rare occasions when he earns a rather stern correction (yes, it can produce a yelp of surprise and/or pain, I won't deny that), he isn't perturbed because the sensation is brief and it is over, and most of all, he knows why. Like my horses with their electric fence, he understands that his actions control the collar.

I do think that e-collars shouldn't be sold over the counter. I think a person should be required to take appropriate training before ever using one, because there certainly is room for abuse. But research has shown that a consistent, predictable cause and effect is not stressful to the animal. OTOH, inconsistency, regardless of the training method employed (yes, even "positive" methods) is very stressful, because the animal never knows where it stands. Anything can be abused. IMHO, too much crate time is the biggest issue for today's dogs that are left alone all day long while their owners are at work. Psychologically, this is a terrible fate for a pack animal…..

[tanza]

While I am not going to comment or get into the whole e-collar discussion and my personal opinion is that I would not use this, I will make one point. Electric fence for livestock, be it horse, sheep, cattle is way different then a collar around a dogs neck with the human doing the shocking. And yes, I have used electric fence for not only horses but for Basenjis too when faced with chain link fence or even solid fence fighting. And I would use electric fencing for this purpose. I would not use E-Collar for any training method. But again, that is my choice.

Add to this the idea of using invisable fencing, which I would never use nor would I ever sell a pup that might be put in this situation. Again, my choice

As far as health testing before breeding, as I have stated more then just a few times, this needs to be done before breeding, not after. Again, IMO… and one that I have always done. The only time this might be an "after thought" would be if there was an "opps" litter. And even responsible breeders can have this happen. Knock on wood, I have not had this happen, but I certain know it does and can happen to the best of breeders.

[GeorgiaK9]

I have to say I appreciate a few sane people on my topic of a working line of basenjis. Somehow, it digressed into personal attacks on me by a person who I do not even know…..I suppose that is the nature of Internet forums where it is safe to be rude and pedantic while hiding behind a keyboard. I have tried to be nice and on topic, even appealing to administrators of this forum to intervene, unfortunately, to no avail.

This side topic was not why I posted here but I will give you all my thoughts one time. E-collars are one of the best tools on the planet for those who want to give their dogs freedom. My dogs are very sane and get along with everything primarily due to their freedom. The e-collar allows for that. If I pull a collar off the wall, my B's are jumping all over me trying to be first to get theirs on. Why? Because it means play time and tons of freedom. On the other hand, I see tons of dogs daily with no control who spend their lives behind doors or with all kinds of contraptions on that they hate and that make them crazy; reactive, neurotic beasts. IMO, this is how one kills their wonderfully wild companions with what they think is kindness.

I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs. I train dogs for life and death situations every day as do my peers. We all use e-collars. The woman who criticized me so badly is not a working dog trainer or handler and never was. She does not know what she is talking about and is simply working off a knee jerk reaction to an emotional issue she created.

Now back to my topic. We produce great working dogs, perhaps some of the best in the country . Stay tuned if you want to learn more about the basenji component.

Jeff