Red and white with tri-factor

[Dan]

@curlytails:

I saw a striking color pattern on a rescue Basenji today, and was just wondering how often it comes up in normal breeding? He is listed as a red and white with tri-factor.

These pics are from the BRAT website (sorry if that's not okay… I can take them down if so; the direct link is here). Anyway, I was just curious as to how this coloration came about.

(And here's hoping this special guy gets a great home!)

I was the breeder of this Dog. Out of five litters with I think 23 pups three of them turned out that color. We kept one of them we liked it so much. The others were red and whites. Yes it is very nice color despite what some of these people are saying about these dogs. You should see Kato the one we kept.

[curlytails]

@Dan:

I was the breeder of this Dog. Out of five litters with I think 23 pups three of them turned out that color. We kept one of them we liked it so much. The others were red and whites. Yes it is very nice color despite what some of these people are saying about these dogs. You should see Kato the one we kept.

Dan, I have no problem with Dewgan's color. Or Kato's, whom I do see on your website. They are beautiful dogs. But the lack of health testing and refusal to take responsibility for a dog that you bred, when the opportunity was made available to you by the rescue, is what I find upsetting. You're not even sure how many puppies you produced, which indicates to me that you haven't followed through to keep track of health problems or where any of your dogs ultimately ended up.

When a breeder's standards are this low, I find little room to be charitable.

[Dan]

@tanza:

Yes, there are, this person in AZ did it for years. As I remember not only was this person using Fox Terriers, but Whippets also since they competed in Lure Coursing. And has since stopped breeding due to health reasons, but the offspring of these dogs are still around and with papers and being used. It started as I remember (but Linda S can expand when she pops in since she is in that area were it happened) before AKC started with DNA requirements for breeding and since this is NOT a requirement unless you are a high volume breeder, it happens. Same with people that would breed a litter and use papers from a dog long dead or very old. It was then with older dogs that AKC put the requirement that on a dog over 12 there would be a sperm count requirement with any breeding. The DNA for parentage was done for high volume breeders (mostly for puppy mills and some BYB) was then also introduced.

In the case of these dogs, the first that I saw the pictures of her pups (Dayna in GA) I knew there was something different about them… and asked about the breeding. And a few years before this, there was a dog that she was using at stud that was a Brindle, however the pedigree of this dog indicated that there is no way this dog could be a Brindle. She had gotten that dog from another BYB in GA that was going out of business (Robyn from Sherwood Basenjis can expand on this when she pops into the Forum).

One reason that I think AKC should require DNA parentage for any and all breeding dogs.

Pat,
You should know better than to say what you are saying. You are implying commercial fraud in a public domain which leaves you wide open to lawsuits. Since I have purchased dogs from this man whom you do not know and are spreading gossip about. If I bothered to do DNA tests what do you think I might do with the results? That is all the laws require in most states is to prove that what you put up on a public domain was a lie and hurt someones interests. So I suggest you take all of this down.
Did this man breed Basenji's with Whippets? Yes he tried it. Is that somehow against the law? No. Do some people not like the fact that he did that. Yes. Does that mean all of the Basenji's he had are mixed breed? Give me a break. Words like "Did it for Years" "Passed off the dogs as AKC registered Basenji's," "Their papered offspring are still around." You are way out of line.

Dan Martinovich
basenjiplanet.com

[Dan]

@krunzer:

Omg! There are people out there who actually do that? Cross breed and then register them as a purebred??? I must be fairly naive about the purebred dog world….

Yes I am sure there are people who will do just about anything. But there are also people who consider gossip gospel fact.

[Dan]

@curlytails:

Dan, I have no problem with Dewgan's color. Or Kato's, whom I do see on your website. They are beautiful dogs. But the lack of health testing and refusal to take responsibility for a dog that you bred, when the opportunity was made available to you by the rescue, is what I find upsetting. You're not even sure how many puppies you produced, which indicates to me that you haven't followed through to keep track of health problems or where any of your dogs ultimately ended up.

When a breeder's standards are this low, I find little room to be charitable.

Well you don't know the story behind that. First the dog is six years old. Doesn't that seem a little passed the total responsibility as a breeder stage? Second the owner called me a full six months before he
sent him to Basenji rescue. I offered my full services to help him place the dog. I offered to put it on my websites, facebook site, and other sites for placement. I also told him were he could advertise for
free to give Dugan away. On top of all of that I told him do not bring him to the pound, that I would take him if it came to that. He declined. The reason I did not just take him immediately is I have two male dogs and a female in a small yard. When you are talking three males without constant supervision it can get dangerous for the dogs. Six months later I get a call from the Basenji rescue asking me if I want
to take the Dog. Of which again I made the same offer and he very tersely declined. In other words I had six months to place that animal while it was in the owners possession. For whatever reason I
have no idea why he did not let me help him. Phoenix is not a hard place to give away Dogs.
As far as falconi testing. There are people who run to the doctor every time they get a fever and people who never go with all points in between. There are very funky self righteous attitudes about how
people handle their own medical care. No different with their animals. Especially when it comes to commercial interests and selling points. My wife and I have both spent hours reading up on the subject. Nor have any of our animals shown any symptoms. But to discuss this would be like discussing the pro's and cons of human vaccinations. To many there are no cons period. So that is how far we would get in this discussion. I'm sure most of these people would scream total irresponsibility. That is fine. They can conduct their lives the way they want, and sell their pups for allot more than we have sold ours for. WE have only had one returned dog outside of Dugan which we took back and everyone seems to be very happy. And that my dear is the issue.

[Dan]

@sinbaje:

A BRAT representative has been notified of the breeder (not the person Pat alludes to but the dogs do come down from all of his "stock") who has been contacted and would not confirm or deny he was the breeder, but did refuse to claim Dewgan.

However through research I was able to find a FB page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Basenjiplanetcom/202323096448267

and website:

http://www.basenjiplanet.com/

Showing the person BRAT contacted is in fact the breeder. And has bred their two "basenjis" five times (for fun and for pets per FB) and has a new breeding female out of a Champion male and a female from question heritage.

BRAT has been updated with all of this info.

Linda,
That is a bunch of balony that I would not confirm or deny we were the breeders. There was no question of that. Yes we refused to take him from the Basenji rescue. This is what I wrote to another person on this forum. (I have been over your house a few times. )
First the dog is six years old. Doesn't that seem a little passed the total responsibility as a breeder stage? Second the owner called me a full six months before he
sent him to Basenji rescue. I offered my full services to help him place the dog. I offered to put it on my websites, facebook site, and other sites for placement. I also told him were he could advertise for
free to give Dugan away. On top of all of that I told him do not bring him to the pound, that I would take him if it came to that. He declined. The reason I did not just take him immediately is I have two male dogs and a female in a small yard. When you are talking three males without constant supervision it can get dangerous for the dogs. Six months later I get a call from the Basenji rescue asking me if I want
to take the Dog. Of which again I made the same offer and he very tersely declined. In other words I had six months to place that animal while it was in the owners possession. For whatever reason I
have no idea why he did not let me help him. Phoenix is not a hard place to give away Dogs.

[curlytails]

@Dan:

Well you don't know the story behind that. First the dog is six years old. Doesn't that seem a little passed the total responsibility as a breeder stage?

You haven't spent much time communicating with other responsible breeders, have you?

@Dan:

For whatever reason I have no idea why he did not let me help him.

I think I'm starting to understand why. Thank you for filling in your side of the story.

@Dan:

As far as falconi testing.

It's Fanconi.
And it's not the only health test I was referring to, as it's not the only problem that Basenjis are vulnerable to.

@Dan:

There are people who run to the doctor every time they get a fever and people who never go with all points in between.

Did you really just make light of an incurable, fatal, genetically heritable yet screenable (by a totally non-invasive procedure) and preventable disease by comparing it to… a fever? Wow.

I don't understand your logic.

Maybe because there is none.

@Dan:

They can conduct their lives the way they want, and sell their pups for allot more than we have sold ours for.

I think you're missing the bigger picture if you're using puppy prices as a defense in your favor. I doubt any of the responsible breeders on this forum would have framed their practices as a "commercial" venture, as you seem to regard breeding, because they're not doing it for the money. Even if they're charging more than you do for a genetically screened and lifetime-supported pup.

Obviously you're not interested in rationally debating the pros and cons of health testing, so I'm going to make one suggestion not for your sake, but for anyone who should stumble across this thread and be swayed by this ridiculous idea that "cheaper" is somehow better when you're talking about buying a living, breathing companion pet from a breeder: I invite you to consult with anyone who's had to fork over vet bills for a poorly-bred pup who developed unexpected health or temperament problems that the breeder assumes no accountability for. The "bargain" pup suddenly becomes less of a deal when you're confronted with expensive corrective surgery or shelling out tons of money each month on chronic medication, just to make sure that the puppy you've fallen in love with continues to have a happy life.

@Dan:

And that my dear is the issue.

We don't seem to be considering the same "issue" at all. Regardless, I hope for your puppy buyers' sakes that they will continue to be very happy and cherish their pets, whether or not you're able to account for them all. I want no less for any dog, no matter how they were bred. I just know I would be extremely guarded against buying a puppy from a breeder who expresses such callous views on health testing, whether I'm their "dear" or not.

[tanza]

@Dan:

First the dog is six years old. Doesn't that seem a little passed the total responsibility as a breeder stage? .

Responsible breeders are responsible for LIFE for the puppies they produce… simple as that, so the answer to your question is NO! Even if the dog was 14, still the breeders responsibility, period.

And to not test for Fanconi is irresponsible, let alone do no other health testing.

[bewler]

I am speechless. Everything this breeder is saying flies in the face of everything I have learned on this forum and everything I intuitively believe to be right regarding the care and breeding of dogs. I'll take my chances with unknown origins from BRAT dogs, any day, over a breeder who blithely thinks Fanconi testing is pointless. THIS is why shelters across the country are plagued with unwanted animals that ultimately get euthanized. If you're not going to stand by your animals for the duration of their lives - find another "hobby"!

[vickilb]

Wow!

This guy keeps calling Dewgan "dog". It's so impersonal. He's not just "dog". That makes me a little sad.

I hope Dewgan gets the best new home! Away from Arizona!!!!! Where it's "an easy place to give away dogs". There doesn't seem to be any loyalty from his breeding Daddy.

[sinbaje]

@Dan:

That is a bunch of balony that I would not confirm or deny we were the breeders.

The BRAT person I was in contact with told me when Dewgan's breeder was contacted, they denied they were the breeder. I have absolutely no reason on this Earth not to believe this person; they have no agenda and certainly have no reason to lie about what was or was not said.

@Dan:

This is what I wrote to another person on this forum. (I have been over your house a few times. )

Really? Was I home? And which house exactly would that be….? Located...? Looks like...? And what year was that again? This enquiring mind wants to know!

As for the expiration date of when being a responsible breeder ends - try never.

I see you have a passel of children (if your website is to be believed vs only being a marketing tool) - does your responsibility end at age 18, or do you think you might still be concerned for them and care for them should they fall on hard times until the day you die? There is no difference, IMO, for the 23 puppies you chose to bring into this world.

As for the person Pat mentioned earlier in this thread, I have known of him and have competed with, and against him, and his dogs (owned by others) in coursing for a very long time, much longer than you have apparently been in the breed or have owned dogs down from his dogs. We have had several discussions, he and I, about his dogs - about their odd looks (heads mostly), odd colors with many being pintos and dominant colors coming from recessive colored parents - which anyone worth their salt breeding animals knows can not happen, and in particular - their machine gun, rapid fire, incessant barking at the coursing line - a non basenji trait AND capability.

When I asked directly if his dogs were pure bred basenjis - after he asked to use my Dual Champion/LCM basenji on one of his bitches - he did not deny it nor was he surprised when I declined allowing him to use my male due to the integrity of his bitches pedigree. This was LONG before the whippet/basenji crosses he bred and registered as purebred basenjis with the AKC.

It is not the mixed breeding I have an issue with (though I personally do not condone breeding mixes for monetary gain when there are so many being killed daily) - it is the perpetuation of lies of breed purity, including registering them as purebred, that I have a problem with, which apparently continues to this day.

As for the rest of your posts - they do not merit a reply, nor my time formulating one, IMO. It is quite obvious to this reader you are a for profit, commercial breeder, with little to no interest in the betterment of the breed and little regard for the dogs in your care.

You are a sad fact of life in the world of dogs, which I can do little about, except hope to educate unsuspecting puppy people away from your door and your pocketbook. Thank you for the heads up.

[debbi j.]

We at BRAT are extremely appreciative when a responsible breeder is willing to take back a dog of their breeding. And I am including senior basenjis in this comment. It's a life-long obligation/responsibility. If we are aware of who the breeder is, we do contact the breeder about the dog that is coming into rescue.

debbi j.

[Dan]

Debbie,
I can't even believe what is happening on this thread. It is what it is though. I explained the circumstances related to Dugan, (the dog.) I was willing to place the him for the owner. I left messages on his phone as to why he did not email me pictures and such. Because he did not return my calls after a while I thought maybe I misunderstood him and he wants to sell the dog. Which I would not have agreed to incidentally. Since this forum all came up for me yesterday I thought this morning perhaps he needed to get rid of him right away. Maybe I am at fault if that was the case and I did not understand him. I did offer to take him back if he was going to bring him to the pound. I thought he and I had an understanding. He wasn't demanding me to take him back but offering me first choice. I understood his dilemma and was willing to help as best I could under my particular circumstances, and, which incidentally would have worked out fine for everybody. Someone who wanted a Basenji and was fit to own one would have got one for free. I would have fulfilled what responsibility I thought I had, and the owner would have his problem solved. Like I said maybe he thought he was going to sell him and failed at it. I did advise him against the idea of trying to do that, but I don't know since he never called me or emailed me back.

I was taken completely back when BRAT called me in what seems like 6 months later asking me to take the dog. In my mind I had all that time to place the dog and now I was being put on the spot. I told the gentleman at BRAT that I would help place him. He very tersely refused using some wording that I thought was kind of weird to reject my offer. I see you are charging $250 to place him. Obviously I could not help you do that. That is probably close what I sold him to the owner for in the first place.

Our verbal agreement with people who have our dogs has been thus. Under many circumstances we will take the dogs back and refund the money within two years. After that we will take them back under certain circumstances without a refund unless we are at fault. I was living up to that agreement. If you or people on this board don't like those terms that is tough. We do not make any money selling these dogs. I doubt very few Basenji owners do. All people who breed and sell basenji's are not in the same economic circumstances. That is the real world. To say we cannot enjoy doing what we are doing because we cannot do what people who are in completely different economic circumstances can do is bogus. I do not expect people on this forum to understand that though.

Dan Martinovich

[lvoss]

If you cannot take responsibility for the puppies you breed for the life of the dog and know that at the time of breeding then you are irresponsible in producing them. This is the real world and if BRAT were not willing to step up and take responsibility for the mess you made then this dog would be in a shelter possibly on "death row". Cheers to BRAT for being responsible and Jeers to breeders who won't take responsibility where they should.

[Alex]

Thread temporarily closed.