Bonjour from Canada! Interested in conformation, bloodlines and genetics.
  • 0
  • I subscribed a while ago but never had the time to introduce myself. I will apologize right now for any spelling mistakes, my first language is French (I am from Quebec City). My name is Sanda Saunders I am a volunteer with BRAT and have a small selective breeding program. I live in a small Northern Town of Ontario, Canada. About just a little under 2 hours from Ottawa, the capital of Canada.

    I fell in love with the Basenji when I saw one of Kathie Upton's males at a show in Montreal. He was a co-own. Later on, I got to met her and had a great time. I was so impressed by her willingness to help and teach that it made me feel good about getting involved in the breed. I appreciate kind people who are accepting and not judgmental. I became very passionate about the breed and started learning all I could about the different bloodlines worldwide as well as all the issues with the breed. I absolutely ADORE chatting about what is good and what is lacking in all the bloodlines knowing very well that each dog is an individual and is also greatly affected by its environment. I became friends with basenji people all around the planet and we always have a great time "debating" all kinds of subjects.

    My love for learning about bloodlines comes from breeding and training horses for 30 years on and off. I saw the direct effect of selective breeding in the conformation and temperament of the horses i trained. When I got involved with dogs, I started right off the bat researching and "stalking" a bloodline that had proper conformation with A+ temperament. I spent a lot of time chatting with anyone who knew anything about basenjis. I became a total sponge for knowledge. I also use my own judgment as we all need to "take some and leave some". I will continue the learning process for the rest of my life.

    So I the process of my investigating I was offered what I dreamed of, a sweet gentle adorable well behaved basenji female named Madam who posessed all the attributes I had wanted all along, conformation, athletic ability, temperament and health. My dream came true and I am so in love with her. I appreciate the fact that she loves me too. And my 3 kids as well. Since madam came into our life we have been so blessed. We enjoy eachother's company and we embarque on numerous adventures together as a family.

    We use dog shows as an excuse to explore new places and make new friends. My 3 children do junior handling and i am learning to handle as well. We were blessed with meeting Edgar Rojas years ago when we had our first show dog (whom after a full year of showing her, ended-up being a scam from a con-artist). Edgar is a professional handler who is sOOOOO awesome because he is kind, considerate and gentle with dogs. And also with us. He took my daughter under his wing and taught us so much. I am filled with gratitude towards him. We made so many friends at the shows and had so much fun together at all the different shows that we became addicted. Since the dogs enjoy it too, we are planing on continuing for as long as we can.

    What also brings joy to our lives is our puppies. We love puppies. Now that we have experienced this joy we will never be without it again. I breed selectively in hopes of producing as perfect as possible. But I love them so much no matter what. Did I mention how much happiness our basenjis bring us? As I am typing I have my one year old Lucky rearing-up on his hind legs pawing at my arm so I will go play with him… so i guess I gotta go now... must torture him with love just a little!

    So tell me who do YOU like the best for stud dogs right now, anywhere in the world??? Which stud dog has had the greatest legacy in the last 15 years? Lets start a FUN debate!!!! Shall-we? :)

  • 0
  • Welcome…

    Depends on what you mean about "legacy".... show record, what they have produced, health, temperament? There are many ways to judge a stud dog....

    The most important thing to me first is health and temperament. As a dog can be the biggest winning dog in the show ring, but without health and temperament behind that dog it is not worth much... Of course this means not only health testing the stud dog, but having its sire/dam, grand sire/dam, offspring (if any), and siblings health tested. And not just for Fanconi, but hips, eyes, thyroid at the very least (add in patellas too).

    Then you can also have the most winning stud, but in looking at pedigrees, siblings, offspring, and conformation of the dog itself, it is clear it is not the best cross for your bitch....

  • 0
  • Houston

    Welcome Sanda, nice to have you and yours onboard.

  • 0
  • Welcome! :)

    I'm of the opinion that our gene pool is small enough already. I don't think its a good idea for lots of people to flock to one "perfect" stud. I'm just returning to showing basenjis, so I'm a bit out of the loop as to who's who as far as stud dogs.:rolleyes::D My 2 cents!

  • 0
  • @Kirsten:

    Welcome! :)

    I'm of the opinion that our gene pool is small enough already. I don't think its a good idea for lots of people to flock to one "perfect" stud. I'm just returning to showing basenjis, so I'm a bit out of the loop as to who's who as far as stud dogs.:rolleyes::D My 2 cents!

    Great point… that is a fact... you should pick your studs based on Conformation, Type, Health, Temperament... and in the order that you think is most important...

  • 0
  • Oh yes I totally agree with you.

    But who are some of the great stud dogs "you" think have had the greatest legacy all around in the last 15 years? I would love to hear your thoughts. Who do you think are some of the dogs who posess it all???

    I agree we should not flock to any of them but it is nice to share our opinions so we can all learn from each other. By doing this we might find some awesome unrelated dogs we would have never thought of and maybe even in a different country. I am definitely not asking about just winning. All around phenomenal dogs you appreciate and respect?

    I hear Sweden has some amazing dogs.
    I heard about Australia having some top all around gems too.

  • 0
  • S

    Welcome..glad you found us.

  • 0
  • @Sanda:

    Oh yes I totally agree with you.

    But who are some of the great stud dogs "you" think have had the greatest legacy all around in the last 15 years? I would love to hear your thoughts. Who do you think are some of the dogs who posess it all???

    I agree we should not flock to any of them but it is nice to share our opinions so we can all learn from each other. By doing this we might find some awesome unrelated dogs we would have never thought of and maybe even in a different country. I am definitely not asking about just winning. All around phenomenal dogs you appreciate and respect?

    I hear Sweden has some amazing dogs.
    I heard about Australia having some top all around gems too.

    In my opinion there are NO "phenomenal" stud dogs…. all have something to offer, depends on what you are looking for. And after years on horses... to me the "girl" (mare or bitch) is more important then the stud.... and most of the dogs in Sweden have roots to US dogs.. so you would need to share the pedigrees for some opinions....

  • 0
  • @tanza:

    In my opinion there are NO "phenomenal" stud dogs…. all have something to offer, depends on what you are looking for. And after years on horses... to me the "girl" (mare or bitch) is more important then the stud.... and most of the dogs in Sweden have roots to US dogs.. so you would need to share the pedigrees for some opinions....

    Thank you for sharing, ok I can be more specific, with-in the standard and great health and temperament, I would love to know more examples of stud dogs that have a good track record for passing along their genetic material knowing very well that their is a tendency for the females to have a greater impact. Yes it is true in horses as well. Studies point to the female legacy being more predominant. But still, it is good to have a good knowledge of the males that have managed to have a positive impact or legacy, despite the female "genetic bullying" lol :) There are indeed some males that do stand out legacy wise.

    Here is a quick example in race horses. Secretariat was perhaps a better race horse than Northern Dancer but Northern Dancer's ability to pass on his genetic "greatness" (to keep the discussion simple), is well doccumented. So I am sure the same happens in dogs. I have found some studs who seamed to have had greater impacts than others. This is what I am trying to find out more about.

    Conformation wise I can be more specific too. As I said, with-in the standard and excellent health/temperament/trainability, I have a thing for well rounded but cheeks on a basenji, a straight shorter back (as long as the trot stretches way out there) with the slightly lower tight tail set, elegant but strong built. Again with-in the standard limits. I see some narrow chests in Europe (I am not saying everywhere just some here and there). The standard calls for medium. I prefer to be on the larger side of the word medium. If we could talk in food terms, I would prefer medium well to medium rare. I feel a basenji can still be on the solid side of slim, and solid elegant. I want to stay away from too elegant and too slim. I have seen the direction that some breeders have taken towards the super slim and they think that makes their dogs more elegant but that is not so. You can have a solid elegance with good bone (not flimsy). I am just trying to share personal preference here, with-in the standard. Not trying to convince anyone to my oppinion. I am looking for nice angulation in the back.

    Blood line wise, since we have a fairly small pool, I am trying to bring-up (meaning learning about) great dogs from all kinds of different bloodlines so we can keep having genetic variety. This way we can add new bloodlines to our breeding programs. Again, the absolute best dog for one of my bitches might be hiding somewhere undiscovered. The more we celebrate greatness, the better it will be for everyone in the long run.

  • 0
  • @Sanda:

    Here is a quick example in race horses. Secretariat was perhaps a better race horse than Northern Dancer but Northern Dancer's ability to pass on his genetic "greatness" (to keep the discussion simple), is well doccumented. So I am sure the same happens in dogs. I have found some studs who seamed to have had greater impacts than others. This is what I am trying to find out more about.

    But here is the interesting thing about Secretariat, is that he prove his worth as a broodmare sire, something that Northern Dancer did not…. my personal opinion is that I would rather have a strong female line. Of course well documented to both leans heavily to unsoundness.

    As far as conformation on Basenjis, I think that one of the biggest faults we are starting to see in conformation is a low tail set and little to no shelf. No shelf, with a to short second thigh and with straight shoulders, there is no good movement. Again, interesting is that with both of these faults, the dog can look like they are moving well enough since both the front and the rear have the same fault... but in closer evaluation, you see that it is certainly not correct. My personal taste is to a slightly longer back, especially in a bitch. I would rather have a little longer back then a little to short. Feet are becoming a problem I think in the breed, flat feet with very little arch and with a closer look, not very padded "pads" either.

    Again, I don't have any stud that I would say "changed the world" as far as any of the things you mentioned. If you strictly want to talk "lines" and not specific dogs that would be more interesting, I think.

    For example I think that the Reliant lines carried and passed on exceptional heads with lots of cushion (which I think is what you meant with rounded cheeks).

  • 0
  • Pat -
    I went to a Helen King seminar a few months ago on structure. Really interesting. She doesn't have much use for a shelf in dogs, but did say question everything. So, my question is, what is the reason for a shelf in our breed?

    http://www.recipetowin.com/

    she does, however, like to see a larger hip/pelvis area. if you go to that link to her page and look at the red bc there - she really liked his structure - notice the pelvis, short loin.

    eta: do most of the native basenjis have a pronounced shelf?

  • 0
  • If I look at my own dogs, the ones with no shelf, really had less the moderate angulation in the rear… and they did not have a long second thigh... and they did not have the reach and drive that I really wanted to see...

  • 0
  • @tanza:

    If I look at my own dogs, the ones with no shelf, really had less the moderate angulation in the rear… .

    meaning straighter in the rear or ???

    sorry, here's the link with the red bc. he has, IMO, moderate angles and not so much shelf.

    http://www.recipetowin.com/

    i think i gave a different link.

    her seminars are worth going to. i wish i could find the link with pics of her poodles. her poo's are nekkid, so you can see everything. the poo's had lots of shelf. the ewe neck thing on her page is also interesting.

    the question is, is the shelf functional or do we just like the look?

    is it fair to look at wolves for comparison?
    http://www.maxwaugh.com/zoo02/wolf2.html
    here's a pic of a wolf "stacked" not much shelf.

    is the shelf related to a high tail set? i guess it would have to be. More shelf = higher tail set = more tilt to the pelvic bones?

    just asking, trying to learn/think

    thanks

  • 0
  • oh, and if someone not named pat wants to toss some ideas out, i'd love to hear them; pat was just the person who brought up the shelf (i think) and i know she's knowledgeable about the breed. i didn't mean to do a strictly private conversation.

    thanks

  • 0
  • look at avongara buddy (lower rt pic)
    http://www.hicotn.com/avongara.html

    would you say this pup has "lots" of shelf?
    http://www.afrikenji.com/leeloo.html
    and no recent african? of course she's young in that pic. would that make the shelf more promenient?
    do you think a basenji can have too much shelf?

  • 0
  • forgot to add:
    to me, avongara buddy has not much shelf but a goodly amout of pelvis. the pelvis is important since that's where the muscles attach.

    here's more interesting stuff from helen king:
    http://www.ippgazette.com/Issues/V3-4/ConformationStudy.htm

    i should dig up my notes. if only i were more organized

  • 0
  • ok, i'll sit on my hands for a bit now. i learn more that way. ;-)

  • 0
  • @agilebasenji:

    forgot to add:
    to me, avongara buddy has not much shelf but a goodly amout of pelvis. the pelvis is important since that's where the muscles attach.

    here's more interesting stuff from helen king:
    http://www.ippgazette.com/Issues/V3-4/ConformationStudy.htm

    i should dig up my notes. if only i were more organized

    Interesting read. I haven't done any agility yet. Do you find limitations on your basenjis performance based on conformation? I've yet to see a clumsy basenji;)

    As for shelf, I think the four poodles in the example show a nice variety. I think it's partly high tailset and partly the angle of the pelvis that create the "shelf." I find it very attractive, but haven't ever owned a dog with a particularly obvious shelf.

  • 0
  • That is interesting, Kim. I would be interested to know if the 'lack of shelf contributes to agility' is a commonly held theory, or a personal theory of the website owner?

    I prefer a definitive shelf, because as Pat indicated, I think it leads to better movement; and I just prefer how it looks. And tail set is indicated by the angle of the pelvis. I prefer a high tail set; and high tail set is clearly indicated in the standard.

    I have seen full Africans with good tail sets, and low tail sets…just like domestics.

  • 0
  • @agilebasenji:

    look at avongara buddy (lower rt pic)
    http://www.hicotn.com/avongara.html

    would you say this pup has "lots" of shelf?
    http://www.afrikenji.com/leeloo.html
    and no recent african? of course she's young in that pic. would that make the shelf more promenient?
    do you think a basenji can have too much shelf?

    Avongara Buddy, IMO has very little shelf and a low tail set.

    The pup in the picture has a very nice shelf with a very nice tail set…. and her shelf is about the same from the puppy picture to the later pictures at 2.5yrs. I have never seen a Basenji with too much shelf?

  • 0
  • okay, so what is the function of a shelf and a high tail set in our very natural breed?

    I know what the breed standard says, so that's not an answer ;-) I'd like to know why this is. In looking at wild canids, i see neither a high tail set nor a prominent shelf but the most efficient, beautiful moving canid I've ever seen was a coyote that trotted accross my yard. And his (her?) jumping skill were amazing.

    Could a high tail set be related to the domestication genes much like the white markings (Belyaev fox study)?

  • 38
    Posts
  • 5700
    Views
  • Log in to reply