Did she always have them or did they start after something/some time? Do antihistamines clear the problem?
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Wrong Pat, Since we all want to get nasty, I did go with the breeder person first. I've been shot down many times. So try again.
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I did offer my article more than once to folks….
No one has ever used the article.White I do agree that as a breeder, I visit the vet far more often than the average folk, I know what more meds are used for...
but this isn't just due to me being a breeder.
I have had fanconi-afflicteds.
I have had multiple blind dogs.
I have had a dog with Valley Fever.
I have had a dog that shattered a bone and needed surgery.
Then the normal stuff... kennel cough, giardia, etc.I see my vet for precautionary stuff and meds if need be.
My vet has finally bred his first [amd maybe last] litter of labs.
He understands what we go through and isn't really interested in that crap any more.I can be contacted through my website or on here.. though I will confess that I don't visit her as often as most folks.
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I will apologize to everyone. There was a miscommunication and a message I did not get privately.
I will still say, that as breeders, we tend to start talking as breeders and not as the general public and will occassionally throw in words that people do not understand. In an article, I have no problem sending it back for clarification. And if a breeder with experience wants to do the article, then I am more that happy to. Especially as I have just had something related to me that I hadn't even though of from a breeders standpoint. So, I was in total error on the breeder thing. Again, my apologies, as I did not think ahead to the statement that was put to me privately and my apologies to Pat, Kathy, and the other breeders on the forum for thinking too rigidly.
10 Lashes with a Wet Noodle for me! I am terribly sorry.
Arlene
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I think as a breeder, I go through hell and gone for my pups and dogs.
I brought them into this world, and will go to whatever lengths it takes to make sure they are well-cared for…
I could care less what others think of me for my choices of homes..
if I wouldn't trust someone to babysit the late Benny...
then they are NOT good enough to have one of my dogs.There are dog owners, and many on here, that get their pups/dogs from folks that MANY of us would call puppy mills or backyard breeders.
Over the years, the responsible breeders have just said look for this check this out for yourself
It is our way of having the pup owner discover the not-so-good on their own... more of a we are not pointing fingers kind of way ot helping them out.I know there are some folks that would rather you just tell them the bad...
but this way nothing can come back to bite us in the bum. We are here for the dogs. But, we gotta CYA!I think this was just a big misunderstanding and its all good now :-)So I guess I can get out of my jammies and let the dogs run amuck inside instead of on/under/around the trampoline!
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Well put Kathy… and I agree
and is that one of your new pups your Avatar?
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nomrbddgs - would you like me to have your request put in our (Basenji Owners and Breeders) magazine? It's just possible that someone here might be prepared to write for you. We do have some European (as opposed to UK) members. I personally don't know of anyone who would do it, sorry! Have you tried Steve Gonto? - he spoke movingly of his own Fanconi affected bitch at our Health Seminar.
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Arlene, are you still on this site?
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I did get a very good selection from Kathy. Thanks everyone for their input. Kathy has done an excellent job helping me and I truly appreciate everything she has done. She has also given me a few truly great articles. Thank you very much Kathy, I appreciate all the help you've given me.
Thanks you Patty, I would like that very much. As I said this is a worldwide affliction and I would like to keep the column going to see the many different reactions from the many different owners of Afflicted Basenjis. We all know some definitely do better than others.
Although I do have a health column, I'm definitely trying to find things that are related to Basenji's and their issues. So if anyone has ANY health stories they would like to relate I would love to be able to print them. Actually, any stories related to Basenji's specifically. I always send a copy of the newsletter to anyone who contributes to the newsletter. It doesn't even have to be health related. We have one going right now about an airline escapee. We have also had thyroid columns, racing columns, obedience columns, I would like to get one on hunting, and any other activity that is related. I specifically asked at this time about Fanconi because of the change last year in the cheek swab.
Sorry, I'm all over the place, but my brain is going in 100 directions. So thank you everyone, sorry for all my frustrations and short temper. As I said 10 lashes-sorry, give me 20. I've been a bear.
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Arlene, we are all here to help you.
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nomrbddgs - Please send me details. Our magazine doesn't come out now until October so there's time - however, I could also ask the breed notes writer in the national weekly dog paper to make the request for you.
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As I re-read this thread I thought about being a 1st time 'senji pet owner and what it would have meant to me if my Tyler had been diagnosed with Fanconi.
It brought to mind the old Kubler-Ross model (1969)…..
Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
AcceptancePlease, not to stir the pot, but I'm wondering..... when 1st time Basenji pet owners are confronted with the possibility of Fanconi in their beloved pup (you all remember the 'love at first sight' moment) don't they in fact go through something different than a breeder? I've seen it here at the forums; Denial and Anger surface first and usually in that order.
From my PPOV....we did the breed research for 5 years (online and with books), we knew about Fanconi. We contacted our Vet ahead of time to make sure she was willing to take on our Basenji and was aware of the genetic risks. We chose a pup from a breeder that was represented not only on line as reputable, but also was a co-breeder with an author from one of our books.
My second B. was researched in the same way. I LOVE them both.
Imagine then, after all that time and research you found and read this forum and you had an affected pup/dog.
Denial–-of course, the breeder misrepresented themselves.
Anger--again of course.
'F' all those BYB's and Mill people that have wonderful web sites that draw in the unassuming consumer.It IS, IMHO, different for petowners
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First I forgot to do the multiple quotes… so going on what I can remember from 10 seconds ago
Arlene, I'll send you another about blind dogs... and if you want the valley fever that could be made available to you as well!
Yes, it does suck as a pet owner to have a bsaenji become afflicted with Fanconi Syndrome.
Your one basenji, or two basenjis.But let me tell you, when you get the call... and then you are frantic calling owners of the littermates that don't return your calls, haven't bothered to test in over a year [if at all], have moved, have life get in the way.
Can you imagine the stress running through you when trying to contact other pup [[now older dog] owners?
I spent far too many hours stressing over something I had no control over.
I tried, tried, and tried many times over to get in touch with people that had dogs from me.
Some people are just flaky.Then next month another call comes. WHAT COULD BE WORSE? is what you are thinking.
Oh, that would be getting yet another call about a sick dog. Then working it into your schedule to visit the dog and take him in for a blood draw [only to follow him around for 20 minutes when he wouldn't pee]… then he finally pees when you get to the vet... in the parking lot....
HE IS SPILLING SUGAR.
WHY? WHY? WHY?
You feel like you have been through more than the wringer at this point.So, in 3 months time… you have had 3 diagnosed with Fanconi Syndrome.
You think life sucks when it comes to breeding.
You are ready to be done and move on to another breed.
A month or two things are going well...
then bammo!!!
ANOTHER SPILLING SUGAR!Within a year's time we had 5 Fanconi Affecteds…..
THAT SUCKS.Then it was Benny.
Life was totally different now.
I was done.
Hated basenjis.
Hated breeding.
Didn't want to see another basenji for the rest of my life.Fanconi sucks. And it sucks even worse when it is your baby.
I am not sure about all those steps...
Denial --- yes, I was sure my strips were no good.
Anger --- yes, I didn't think it was fair when others who aren't diligent in
health-testing didn't have this happening to them.
Bargaining --- NEVER WENT THERE.
Depression --- yes, was there for quite a while.
Acceptance --- yep, was no place else to go. -
I got my first basenji 11 years ago. He is my first dog as an adult, he was bought as pet with option to show. When I got him I had no intention of becoming a breeder. I had researched the breed, gone to a couple of shows, gone to a lure trial, had planned on waiting another year before getting a dog. I fell in love with litter and decided to go ahead and contact the breeder and see if one was still available. He was and I went through the screening process, me asking questions, her asking questions.
No matter what came next, he is my companion, he is my pet. I do not know why everyone seems to think that being a breeder makes it any different.
My dogs are my companions. They sleep in bed and cuddle on the couch. They yodel when I get home and jump in my lap as I type. The difference between a breeder and the pet owner is that the breeder was the one who made the choice of who to breed, we have known them since they were little rolly polly balls moving around in their dams bellies and they are our responsibility for the entirety of their life.
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I got my first basenji 11 years ago. He is my first dog as an adult, he was bought as pet with option to show. When I got him I had no intention of becoming a breeder. I had researched the breed, gone to a couple of shows, gone to a lure trial, had planned on waiting another year before getting a dog. I fell in love with litter and decided to go ahead and contact the breeder and see if one was still available. He was and I went through the screening process, me asking questions, her asking questions.
No matter what came next, he is my companion, he is my pet. I do not know why everyone seems to think that being a breeder makes it any different.
My dogs are my companions. They sleep in bed and cuddle on the couch. They yodel when I get home and jump in my lap as I type. The difference between a breeder and the pet owner is that the breeder was the one who made the choice of who to breed, we have known them since they were little rolly polly balls moving around in their dams bellies and they are our responsibility for the entirety of their life.
I totally agree, Lisa. I knew from the time that Querk was very young that there was a good chance that he would be Fanconi affected. I was terrified every time I did a test strip with him…and then when his sister became affected, my heart sunk...both for her, and for him. Luckily, he is only a carrier...but I don't think being a breeder makes the whole Fanconi drama any easier or less painful.
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And I also agree… however.. I can understand some of the points that Arlene made... with pet owners... they might not be as "tuned" into testing or health concerns.. but that said... IMO they should be... they have a living breathing animal... and they should be aware of what might come to pass...
When I got my Maggii, I was new to the breed.... two days before she whelped I found out that her Mother was spilling... I was totally crushed... I was expecting my very first litter... what was I going to do..??? Obviously I had no choice in whelping the litter.. but then I had to tell all the potential puppy buyers that there was a very good chance that any or all the pups might be affected.... for a first time breeder... let me tell you I have dumb struck... and the fact that Maggii was at super high risk.. (certainly way before the test).... every time I stripped her I was in a panic... and in the end, we lucked out.. she never got Fanconi, nor did her kids.. that was the luck of the drawl.... but she was still first my pet, my bed dog... my first show dog... all those firsts that are no different then a pet owner. And this goes for any health concern... IMO
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Looks like I missed this thread - I just posted this on a different thread - maybe its too late, but my Tayda has Fanconi and this was my "day in the life" with her.
Tayda was just diagnosed in November so it's only been about 6 months that we have been managing her Fanconi. First - the pills she is on:
1/2 pet tab plus - twice a day
1/2 pet cal - twice a day
5 bicarbs - twice a day
1 potassium tablet - twice a day
1 fish oil - once a day (not for fanconi)
1 cranberry - once a day
1 centrum complete - once a week (wednesday)
1 amino fuel - once a week (friday)
1 scoopful of yogurt with probiotics in it (to help with UTIs))So if you add it all up - she is taking somewhere between 18 - 19 pills per day, depending on which day of the week it is, separated between two meals. The good news is, all of these pills are available over the counter and are not expensive. The bicarbs and the potassium MUST be given intact, the rest can be ground up and mixed with food, provided she eats the food.
When we first started, she was on 1 bicarb 2x day. Since the bicarbs need to be given intact so I would cover them in cream cheese and she would just eat it without inspecting them. After about a week of that, she became wise to them so now I basically have to force her to eat them. It doens't matter what I hide them in, she will spit out the pill if I give them to her to eat on her own. So, I hide them in cream cheese, pry open her mouth, wipe them on the top of her mouth and she will reluctantly swallow them. As of a few days ago, I have started hiding all 5 bicarbs and the potassium in a big glop of the yogurt and if i can get that in her mouth, she will swallow it. Sometimes she spits it all out all over the floor, and I have to quickly scoop up all the pills before Lenny eats them all, and then start over again. I could grind the rest of the pills, but since she rarely finishes her food - I have been giving her the rest of the pills the same way, in case she decides she doesn't want to eat, which is most of the time.
Her food is a mix of dry and wet food. She is super picky so I am still trying to find the right foods that she will eat consistently.
I feed her one round of pills around 7am and food right after. Usually she doesn't touch the food.
I go to work and come home around 4:30pm. I check the crate she and Lenny are in for any wet spots to see if she has peed in the crate (signs of UTI). If she does have a UTI, I call the vet to get a course of Clavamox. Which means two extra pills per day for ~10 days. Luckily the vet has just trusted me that I know what a UTI looks like in Tayda - particularly since in Fanconi dogs a urinanalysis can come up normal even if a UTI exists.
Second round of pills at 7pm and food right after.
We are still getting her blood work done every 3 months until she is stabilized. Every vet visit is around $250 for the venous blood gasses and blood chemistry panel. The vet I found that has the blood gas machine is not familiar with Fanconi so I email all of Tayda's results to Dr. Gonto directly for his recommendation.
Other than the pill/meal times, everything is normal. She plays with me and Lenny, snuggles on the couch with me, gets grouchy at Lenny and turns him over on his back, chases squirrels in the yard, all the usual stuff.
i have a fenced yard so letting her out all the time is not an issue. She does drink a lot more than before, but so far there haven't been any accidents in the house that were not connected with a UTI.
Thats about it. Like I said, aside from keeping things organized with the pills and being more cognizant of what I feed her, it's all pretty much business as usual.
Oh, except - I have pretty much written off going on vacation anywhere. There is just no one around here I trust to take care of her. Which, from a selfish standpoint, SUCKS.
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Never too late… and thanks for posting your experience with Tayda.... it is an eye opener to everyone.... Kudos to you for all that you do for her.....
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There are different perspectives on all sides. I wonder too, how many people actually make an effort and if some, 'put on a face' about it, and if some just don't treat it because they don't think it would matter. I think it's important to have different aspects from different people's experiences. I don't understand Fanconi-unless I had a dog with it, I could never really understand it. Just like people can't understand how my Boxer Zina is being treated and what she has gone through and what she will go through. But, if I don't continue on, myself, the breeder, the vets that are treating her, and Cornell University (of which she is part of a study pod) could not draw on to treat other dogs that have some of the same issues. Even though I went into this knowing she would have variable problems, when you face them it is still a shock. I'm lucky, my kids are very good at giving Zina her pills if I am not around, and even though the breeder is about 4 hours away, I can still drop her off if need be. So I can go on vacation. It is not easy for anyone to take care of a sick dog. The same thing has followed Fanconi syndrome. If we don't have people who treat their dogs, we don't have solutions to some of the problems that can, and do, crop up.
Kathy makes very good points-she had five babies diagnosed! Before Benny! Not only does it suck, it's scary. And can anyone imagine how Kathy feels? I'm sure Kathy still feels the following (I know I would);
Denial-it can't be as bad as everyone says. How do I know, I'm not the person with the Fanconi dog!
Anger-You think she doesn't know what people are saying? Not only does she know, she has to defend herself all the time. It could have happened to any one of us!
Bargaining –- Was there a point in going there? The results spoke for themselves.
Depression --- I’m sure there are still days.
Acceptance --- What are you going to do except deal with it!Then we have Michelle with Tayda and Lenny. She has a different perspective as well. While she probably did research the health background, it's still something you don't expect. A breeder has usually some sort of experience dealing with vets and pills and some health issues. I still say this. A pet person probably has never had to deal with anything remotely like this. I know in all my years with animals, including breeding terriers, I never had a health issue until I had the other boxer and had to deal with leukemia. Even then the pills were minimal. But dealing with Zina has taught me that even with dealing with 8 pills a day-some on an empty stomach, some with food, some not with food, and a specialized diet is tough, Fanconi would be tougher. Boxers will eat anything, not so Basenji's. Michelle's comments above put proof to this. I've had to deal with the odd pill out of the mouth, but thank goodness Zina is good with them. How hard would it be to shove the pills back in on a constant basis and/or crush them all the time?
I still believe each person still has a different perspective on the issue and it's important for all of us to hear what we could have to go through. Many of us will never have to, but it's a real eye-opener for everyone.
BTW, Michelle, you must be superorganized! Kudos to you!
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lol - yeah, I am pretty organized, I should post a pic of Tayda's kitchen cupboard and shelf in the fridge. ha.
I was prompted to test when Tayda peed in the few house a few times - which she never does. Once I saw the strip turn color I immediately accepted that she had Fanconi and was frantically trying to find a vet with the venous blood gas machine. For me, the denial was before I tested her. . The breeder assured me before I got her that there was no Fanconi in her line. I trusted that (or maybe I WANTED to trust that), and I didn't test as often as I should have. My anger was directed toward the breeder when I emailed him to tell him about the strip turning color and his response was "oh, yeah, I think her mom is affected too" Come to find out her mom has been on the protocol for 5 years! Uh… I got Tayda 4 years ago - so clearly it WAS in her line. I was definitely angry. Maybe he really didn't know, although I think the person that has Tayda's mom is another breeder and pretty close with him. Who knows, it really doesn't matter now. I should have been testing more - and I'm just glad she started peeing in front of me to give me a kick in the butt.... otherwise I would have continued to turn a blind eye to it. It's not like I didn't read about it on this message board all the time. It was definitely a case of "I got MY dog from a responsible breeder, MY dog doesn't have that"
Right now, she is not having any other adverse health effects - I just watch her weight like a hawk. But, she has actually put on about 1/2 lb on her despite her refusual to eat regularly. Just last night she ate about 2/3 of her meal and I hand fed her the rest even though it was all mushy and gross. Somehow she was willing to eat it out of my hand. I'm afraid I'm teaching her to be super spoiled. Not sure how to deal with that.
I am on the Fanconi yahoo list though and am definitely aware that there are lots of other things that can crop up in Fanconi dogs - seems like they can be sometimes attributed to the loss of minerals... so I'm just trying to really keep up on her bloodwork and analyze the heck out of it. I don't accept that just cause something is in the normal range, that it is normal. I'm looking for trends now and supplementing for that. Of course with Dr. Gontos recommendations. For example, her potassium level has been decreasing with every test. It is still technically in the normal range, but its at the low end now... so I added Potassium to her pill regimen. Im not waiting for it to drop out of range. Low potassium can cause seizures and who knows what else so better safe than sorry. But that means more check ups and more $$. I'd like to think that once she's stabilized we could cut back to testing once or twice a year, but so far we're on track for every 3 months. So that will be $1000 for the year.
Fanconi for us right now is just the inconvenience of all the pills. And I want to keep it that way.
So, for prospective puppy owners - CHECK THE DATABASE.
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There are different perspectives on all sides. I wonder too, how many people actually make an effort and if some, 'put on a face' about it, and if some just don't treat it because they don't think it would matter. I think it's important to have different aspects from different people's experiences.
Back when BCONC was still able to do rescue and I was the rescue coordinator, we got in a 7 year old bitch that was surrendered because she "kept peeing in the house". When questioned further she had been showing signs of polydipsia, polyuria, and chronic bladder infections since she was 4 years old. We asked if they ever strip tested her to see if she was spilling sugar, "No, our vet doesn't think there is any point. There's nothing you can do if its Fanconi." We were very lucky and there was a home that was willing to take her even knowing that though we had not yet been able to strip test her yet it was pretty much certain she had it. Bijoux lived to be around 12 years old and had a very good life with her new family and responded well to the protocol.
