How long was your breeding "mentorship"?

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  • curlytailsC
    First Basenji's

    For the breeders on the forum…

    I am curious about how long you waited/invested between acquiring your first basenji (or other dog) and breeding your first litter. Did you make the decision to breed because a good mentor (or more than one) picked you out and said, "YOU -- YOU will be the one to help me continue my line." Or did you approach a breeder, open about about your intentions to breed? Understandably, everyone has a different learning curve and training paths are multiple and forked... but how long did it take for you to feel "ready" to breed? How did you know?

    I ask not because I'm interested in breeding (though I would someday like to help foster a pregnant mother and pups, when I actually have the setup for it). I am curious because this has come up here, but moreso in my other breed, where I see very young people who openly declare their desire to breed after spending what I feel is barely any time (a week! a year or two?) with their very first dog, whom they are also quick to declare "perfect" despite having little comparative basis. While the initial impulse for some is to just shout them down, truth is that all good breeders have to start somewhere, right?

    So I'm not asking about the nitty-gritty of how one establishes a mentorship, what things a good breeder should learn, etc. Rather, in your personal experience, how did you balance the eagerness to see your first batch of puppies with the training, testing, and time that it takes to be an ethical, knowledgeable breeder?

    M.C. w/ Bowdu (shiba inu) and Bowpi (basenji)

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  • agilebasenjiA

    I got my first basenji in 1990 and have not been without a basenji since. I did think about breeding Zest a year or two ago, but decided I really wanted a performance dog instead and decided the current house isn't ideal for puppies, so I opted to spay her instead. She has titles in front and behind her name, had her health tests done and i spoke to a well-known basenji person about using her DC dog as stud. (the stud owner was interested and told me if I decide to use her boy, she wanted a puppy from that mating, so she saw something with that mating too.) Do I feel I know enough to breed? I'm not sure. Perhaps.

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  • DebraDownSouthD

    I am old… began looking for a breed, settled on Rotties, went to shows, thought the top winners were the way to go for advice and help. Dear spirits. I spent 2 yrs looking, litter I was waiting for got parvo, 2nd litter had no bitches. I was advised to get a dog that today I wouldn't come near. Good pedigree 3 generations back, what I'd now recognize as puppymill typical. If only the internet was around. I freaking lucked out, healthy good bone, incredible temperaments, good toplines (bone and topline hard to "fix" so again, luck). She has dogs from her who have been at both Westminster 3x and Eukanuba invitational and more. Massive titles. But it was luck. Thank heavens for the internet where it is easier to learn, find the RIGHT mentors. I bred my last litter almost 14 yrs ago, got more into rescue. But my friend and once co-breeder continues. She is a lot younger than me. :)

    Debra

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  • tanzaT

    I have been in the breed for over 20 yrs… I am still learning... my mentors are still a big part of my life... my mentor was someone that I purchased a bitch from.. they held my hand back in 1991... I listened and learned... breeding was not my main goal... it was to learn about the breed first... and go on from there. You need to show or do performance.. you need to prove that your Basenjis are of Basenji type and fit the standand.. that is in the show ring or the performance ring... then you can think about breeding. Remember when you breed it is not about placing puppies it is about improving the breed, better than what you are starting with.... so breeders in the long term... breed for themselves... pups that are place are ones that go to the forever homes... saying only want "SHOW homes only" is IMO a pipe dream.. If one comes along great, but in the end it is the home that is important. If it is that important that a pup show, then the breeder should keep it... and maybe place as an adult if not going to be used in a breeding program. For males, easy enough cause you can collect them...

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • lvossL

    When I got my first basenji, I was looking for something that I could try new things with. I didn't think I would want to show but was interested in lure coursing and maybe agility. By the time I was ready to add a second, I was showing my first boy and he had finally taken some interest in lure coursing. Since my breeder was on the opposite coast, I had her as a mentor and local breeders/fanciers as mentors. I have always been lucky to have some really great breeders willing to share what they have learned over the years. I bred my first litter 6 years after brought my first basenji home.

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  • curlytailsC
    First Basenji's

    Interesting responses so far – thanks! It looks like one thing that connects all of your experiences is that you had an idea of group activities, club "sanctioned" events you could participate in. And there are other options for Basenjis other than conformation showing. Well, this is true of all breeds, but I find Basenji people to have a broader interest in performance than some other breeds…

    I do think it's interesting that Debra mentions "Thank heavens for the internet where it is easier to learn, find the RIGHT mentors." This is absolutely true -- I would never have counted on breed-specific forums when I first got my Shiba. Now, these are daily parts of my life. But the internet (and Craigslist, etc.) also enables people to get virtually any breed they've ever wanted to acquire, without necessarily having the whole apparatus of breed mentors and event sponsors in tow. Yes, yes, I know mail-order catalog pups were around back in the day too... but I insist that the speed at which "rare" (or less common) breed whims can now be indulged is different.

    I just find it shocking that there are so many people (moreso in my other breed) who really think they're ready to breed because their first puppy from parents they've never met is totally "perfect" -- based on what they've seen online. The internet puppy purchasing experience can really isolate owners from their breed communities, even as it connects them!

    M.C. w/ Bowdu (shiba inu) and Bowpi (basenji)

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  • tanzaT

    True Curlytails…. When I got into the breed there was no internet, the telephone (landline with a cord! no cell phones) was the only means of instant communication. And you could not carry on a conversation with more then one at a time....

    Pat Fragassi

    Tanza Basenjis

    www.tanzabasenjis.net

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  • T

    It seems we go along with the flow on this one - got our first Basenji in 1991, showed him but discovered he didn't want to show much, plus he had some other issues… so we got a girl from a wonderful and well-known breeder - showed her. Of course, that wasn't enough, we wanted a tri. Wanted a girl, but it seemed there were none available that year close to us, so we got a boy. Then we discovered that one of our favorite breeders had one tri girl whose placement had fallen through. I went to see her and fell in love. She turned out to be the first Champion for us. In 1999, 8 years after our first Basenji, we finally had a litter. That litter produced our boy Tex, now almost 14, and still wonderful, albeit nearly blind and mostly deaf...

    Terry

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  • YodelDogsY

    It seems that 1990 and 1991 were good years. I got my first show Basenji in 1991 also. :)

    The breeder that I got my foundation bitch from lived in another state and wasn't interested in continued contact after I bought the dog. I didn't know anyone else who even owned Basenjis. (This was before internet.) Only one couple I met at dog shows took the time to even speak to me when I first started showing. They gave me tips on handling and grooming but they did not serve as mentor. I did not have a mentor for my first litter but it turned out well; five puppies of which 3 became conformation champions and 1 became a field champion. My mentor came about later. We disagreed on many things over the years but I learned a lot from her. Now it's my turn to be a mentor. I didn't really know what I was doing early on but I really enjoy it now.

    Robyn Dubbert

    Sherwood Basenjis

    One thing that I have learned in life is to accept that things are not all black or all white. Life is shades of gray and just because someone sees a different shade of gray than you do, it doesn't mean their shade is right or wrong, its just different. ~ Robyn Dubbert

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    @bigv said in When to consider breeding?: So Taylor.rene . A little bit about my findings over the last 30 years is that every person who breeds dogs calls them self a responsible breeder? "" Yes, and fortunately for about 20 year now, anyone who really wants to verify if the breeder is actually believable can do so. Some breeders have no problem with incest for the sake of a ribbon as (dogs aren't people )..It is all about titles not the betterment of the breed. Being involved with race horses..<< Gosh, where to begin. " Incest" is a morality terminology, applied as everything from just not parent/child and aunt or uncles/nieces and nephews....all the way to 2nd or even 3rd cousins. It has little to do with genetics, hence adopted children count, and everything to do with moral views. That said, the human race is far from universally avoiding what would be called close line breeding or even incest. Isolated communities ...either physically by geographic terrain or socially by groups such Ashkenazi Jews and Romani, have limited gene pools. Ashkenazi Jews, btw, joke we are all no further than 5th cousins, but it is nearly true. Dogs and animals have no such manmade morals. A common propensity for many mammals to not to mate with closely related animals has nothing to do with incest. In limited populations they will mate, and the problems that arise if it occurs too often are due to decreased gene, increased expression of harmful genes etc. In controlled breeding, line breeding, even close, can be used to find if there are harmful recessives, or bring out desired recessives. If you think it isn't done with livestock, including horses, you're mistaken. With knowledgeable breeders who keep up on genetics, it absolutely is for the betterment of the breed, not a ribbon... Yes I am not a fan of line breeding but it seems that every zoo in the world has a similar view as they are always swapping animals to improve the genes . ...<<<<< Again, absolutely nothing to do with incest. Zoo animals, even those of nonendangered species, have a serious issue with limited gene pools. The level of that limitation cannot be compared to most pet breeds. We aren't talking many thousands of individuals, or millions, but sometimes 100 or less. Stud books are kept, for example, on all the polar bears in zoos and the effort to keep the diversification as high as possible is serious. (I'll leave out my views on them being in zoos.) So sure, if dog breeders were faced with THAT level of limited gene pool, line breeding would probably be avoided as much as possible. However, that all ignores the fact that dogs in any breed are mostly related.. If you go back 10 or more generations, you find the same dogs heavily in most lines. Sometimes 2 dogs that aren't related 3 generations back may share more actual genes than a closely related dog who has a lot of breeding out of the line on one side. That's where knowledgeable breeders come in. Having studied dingos for the past 15 years I can say without dought a bitch won't mate with relative... They are similar to basenjis in many ways. ...<< That's nice that you've studied them. But researchers are making new discoveries based on actual observations and finding a lot of what they thought isn't true. With massive interbreeding with domestic dogs, the pure dingos are disappearing. I envy those of you able to see them. However researchers suspect they have ...>>During this a hitherto unknown form of the “pure” dingo was discovered (based on DNA and skull features): a white dog with orange spots on the fur. This variant was considered as a single mutation or the result of interbreeding with an isolated dingo population.<< So they don't rule it out. (I downloaded to read, over 100 pages but you might love it. I'll save for later! https://web.archive.org/details/http://www.invasiveanimals.com/downloads/Final-proceedings-with-cover.pdf ) And my boy does have a title that no other basenji has . He is the first and only basenji to be approved by the Victorian State Goverment to be authorised to hunt deer on private and public land within its borders. But to some this would make him unsuitable to breed with you figure?<<< First, while you have done an impressive job with you dogs, I am pretty sure that is a privilege given, not a "title," and I am 100% certain his being able to would have nothing to do with whether anyone deemed him not worthy of breeding to. With the right health checks, good conformation, etc, I would think a good plus...especially if the bitch owner wanted to possibly enhance hunting ability. It simply isn't enough.
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    tanzaT
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  • S

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    lvossL
    I got my first basenji about 8 1/2 years ago. I wanted a dog that I could try lure coursing and maybe agility with. I was not interested in showing but agreed to try a a match or two before making a final decision and getting him neutered. At first Nicky didn't really show much interest in lure coursing and I couldn't find any agility classes near me so I entered Nicky in a match. We had fun and I decided I would give showing a try. When Nicky turned about 20 months old he finally decided the lure looked like a whole lot of fun so we split our time between showing him and coursing him. Nicky finished his AKC and ASFA Field Championships fairly quickly and when he was about 2 1/2 years old we decided we wanted to get him a companion. When his breeder was a planning a litter with black and whites expected I told her that I wanted on the waiting list. Nicky was 3 years old when Rally joined the pack. Rally has always been an enthusiastic courser and had that elusive "show attitude" that Nicky lacked she became my first Champion. During this time I also became active in my local breed club and in rescue. I learned a lot about the history of the breed and about how many people get basenjis because they are attracted to its small size and "barklessness" without understanding about its intelligence, sense of humor, and ability to scream bloody murder when upset. It was a big decision to decide to breed Rally. Being a responsible breeder means being responsible for the pups you bring into this world for the rest of their lives and means breeding with the best interest of the breed at heart. I decided to co-breed a litter out of Rally with her breeder because I felt that Rally had a lot to offer the breed as a whole. She has a healthy pedigree that is not over-represented in the gene pool, she has a fabulous temperament that has charmed many a person, and she is a lovely example of a black and white basenji. It took a year of planning and some bumps in the road but in the end we had a nice litter of 4 pups. I am very proud of all my puppy owners for keeping their puppies active and participating in lure coursing with their dogs. We had really hoped for a black girl in Rally's first litter but she gave us a black boy and only red girls. So we started researching again and after nearly 2 years of planning we bred her to an Avongara. Please take time to read about the emergency c-section that we had to have when one of the pups was mispositioned. It was heartbreaking to lose one of the pups and so scary to think that we could have lost Rally. Breeding is a labor of love. There are so many things that can go wrong and so much screening to make sure the pups end up in homes that will cherish them forever and understand what it is to own a basenji. Basenjis are not for everyone and as much as I love the breed, I have seen many end up in homes that should never have had a basenji and some were homes that would be great for the right breed just not a basenji.