@zande - Very true Zande and also the litter size for Basenji are typically only 4 to 6 pups... so available pups are very limited.
Working Dog Basenji Pups Waiting list
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Since the bitch is with pups, hips (I believe that PennHip would carry the same concerns as OFA Hips on a bitch that is in whelp) and thyroid need to wait 4 or 5 months, IMO. CERF exams can be done now, however
Given it's after the fact, might as well wait and CERF the dam when he does the puppies.
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Given it's after the fact, might as well wait and CERF the dam when he does the puppies.
Good point Clay.
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Training and working dogs in the US and in Africa are apples and oranges. You also make it appear as if the collars might be readily available there and that there is a choice in the matter. And if they were readily available there, they would probably be readily used, too.
Dogs are dogs, be it in US, Africa or Timbuktu. What humans want/expect from their dogs might be what differentiates us, as does the means in which we attain it. Somehow I have doubts natives would ever have need or desire to use a shock collar, except perhaps on each other. ;o)
I certainly can not see the need to fix something that has seemingly been working for hundreds of years and that something is the ability to work and hunt alongside their canine counterpart, without need of any artificial aid - sans a gourd bell around their neck or groin. If it can work for them, surely it can work for any one of us. And no, I am under no grand delusions they click/treat train their dogs or do not use correction based/physical means but for you to imply, Jeff that a shock collar is the only way to get the best out of a dog, makes me pause and think - how is it native populaces, without the benefits higher westernized education/training methods, can find a way to work alongside their dogs and we say its near impossible?
And really - the whole point being - native people do NOT have a choice, therefore they must find a way to be successful, which is much harder IMO, then slapping on a shock collar and compelling a dog to do ones bidding.
In truth I am not too interested in the use, or non use, of shock collars and certainly my post was not attacking, only musing my thoughts aloud while supporting Debra after your implication that a dissenting opinion must mean she/we are hysterical, insane, inexperienced and uneducated, of which we are none of the above.
Until such time they become illegal, shock collars are a personal choice best left up to (I hope) a trained individual and their dog. I have tried it, it is not for me, or my dogs, and I am still able to work my dogs and give them plenty of unrestrained freedom.
You also describe cheap, poorly engineered collars if a low setting was "unpleasant". Good quality collars are imperceptible at a low setting. I would be loathe to use what you did and never recommend them. However, this is a normal mistake for pet owners.
Gosh, I should hope I am a bit above the average pet person. ;O) That said - please do not tell my ex-husband his several thousand dollar investment for the e-collar and the intensive professional training was cheap! If he had known I could go to Petsmart, buy a $100 Innotek and learn for myself, he would flip a switch, even now.
The bulk of what I wrote about is ignored and you simply choose to capitalize on those things that you want to attack. If you were truly helpful, you might have addressed my question. Thank you for all of your help.
The bulk of what you wrote was discussing your working line of basenjis, a "line" of dogs that comes from show stock (ie non "working" basenjis) as a means of promoting your upcoming litter. I addressed what I felt about this; I felt the emphasis on showcasing a unique "working line" of basenjis is perhaps (yes? no?) a means to market them to hopeful buyers vs any real validity since they originate out of non-working show stock; to mean any breeder can produce a working, hunting, performing, social dog in the hands of a skilled and determined owner so really - is there a need for a distinct working line in our breed? A performance line? A coursing line? *I am not convinced there is.
I would worry puppy buyers might end up with expectations their basenjis will respond similarly to yours with very little effort or foundation, all based on behaviors they see in your dogs, obtained via the e-collar. When their basenji does not respond to their naive attempts at training and they turn to the e-collar for help and the dog does not respond as expected; i.e. they shut down, become hyper-vigilant, reactive/aggressive or quake in fear waiting for the next shoe to drop - then what?
I am certainly not saying your dogs react this way, but I have seen enough after effects of e-collar work (from novices to professionals) to know this can be an offshoot problem and that does concern me especially since you do seem to promote more of a positive/reward based technique/spin on your website which folks might assume you primarily use on your dogs to get the results you have.
Now then - if you were to fully train your basenjis and sell them as trained, working, adult dogs - that would be different as the buyer would be getting exactly what you are advertising and it would be up to them to maintain the dog at that level or to allow it to regress.
As for addressing your question re: what you should have tested for - this is your second litter Jeff, shouldn't you already know what you should have tested for?
Per the OFA you started out great with Axel - getting his CHIC (fanconi, hips, eyes, elbows, patellas and thyroid), then you kind of fell behind the eight ball with Aru (eyes and fanconi only prior to her litter) then even less with Kaden and Phoenix (fanconi only (at this time) for their litter).
I think starting with the tests you did with Axel prior to his litter would be a good start.
Now of course, with the DNA fanconi test available, ALL breeding/foundation animals - regardless of what their probable status was - should be re-tested so that is something else that should be done or perhaps you could just DNA all the get before they go to their new homes - then the parents would not need to be done, assuming you do not plan to breed them again. If you plan to breed again - they need to be tested because even all clear pups does not mean all clear parents.
Right now the BHE is supplementing retests at $15 a test so instead of $65 it only costs $50- a nice incentive if money is tight.
IMO, any testing is better than no testing and being open and honest about it, if not with us nosey nellies, then your puppy people, is the icing on the cake.
Again, good luck.
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"I would worry puppy buyers might end up with expectations their basenjis will respond similarly to yours with very little effort or foundation, all based on behaviors they see in your dogs, obtained via the e-collar. When their basenji does not respond to their naive attempts at training and they turn to the e-collar for help and the dog does not respond as expected; i.e. they shut down, become hyper-vigilant, reactive/aggressive or quake in fear waiting for the next shoe to drop - then what?"
Your key words are all obtained via an e-collar…is that not rather presumptuous on your part? Seriously, have you ever watched me train, even seen my basenjis perform, every privy to anything? No, you really are not. So, a simple statement like that is misleading to those who might read it. Were you malicious, perhaps not and that is only for you to know, but misleading nonetheless, and that is not exactly friendly or responsible. You have no idea what the collar is used for with my basenjis and if you would like to find out, ask those who know or come find out for yourself but please do not try to present what you think I do to anyone else without at least doing your due diligence. If you want to know what I do, have the courage to put your boots on and run with my dogs but please do not write misleading statements about me. I will happily take you out and show you anything you want to see. Perhaps it might not be so bad after all; we both might learn something.
ABSOLUTELY NO TRAINING is done with an E-collar with our basenjis. It is for recall only in dangerous situations. The dogs when hunting will go after anything at times. Unlike a native African, if I can stop my basenji from running headlong into danger, I will. My older male Axel has a thing for bobcats and Phoenix wants deer...both dogs will hunt these animals and try to kill them if possible and they can be so wrapped up in what they think they can do that they cannot get themselves out of a bad situation. The first time I went to an e-collar with Axel was when he went after a fox and was gone for several hours. I do not care what anyone says....an e-collar is great if one wants to let a basenji run as free as possible and mine are free all of the time when we are out.
"I certainly can not see the need to fix something that has seemingly been working for hundreds of years and that something is the ability to work and hunt alongside their canine counterpart, without need of any artificial aid - sans a gourd bell around their neck or groin. If it can work for them, surely it can work for any one of us. And no, I am under no grand delusions they click/treat train their dogs or do not use correction based/physical means but for you to imply, Jeff that a shock collar is the only way to get the best out of a dog, makes me pause and think - how is it native populaces, without the benefits higher westernized education/training methods, can find a way to work alongside their dogs and we say its near impossible?"
"And really - the whole point being - native people do NOT have a choice, therefore they must find a way to be successful, which is much harder IMO, then slapping on a shock collar and compelling a dog to do ones bidding."
Your argument here does not take into account the amount of dogs killed and wounded in action in Africa and I am sure there have been many. Natural selection and skill will determine the survivors and they in turn will create better, more cunning hunters that can survive better. These skills are prized by the locals...they are largely ignored by the pet owner here. I have never run with an african basenji in the field as much as I would like to, but I have hunted dangerous game with lots of dogs in the US to include Basenjis. It is not easy and it is not safe. It is dirty, dangerous, and often bloody work. When hunting dangerous game, the tables can be turned on the hunter very quickly and easily. Dogs get hurt and killed here with all of the technology and skill we have, it still happens. The dogs love the hunt more than anything in the world and will sometimes run headlong into death without hesitation. I am all for natural selection and letting dogs be dogs, but I am not willing to watch my hunting basenjis get mauled or killed by boar, mountain lions, coyotes, or bobcats. Furthermore, if I can stop them from running across the highway while chasing one of these creatures or escape being run over by a car...I will "shock" them until the stop and I do not care what anyone says about it.
I use the collar to keep the dogs from getting into trouble and I have never implied or told you that I use the to get the "best" of of a dog. You are presumptuous due to your emotional connection to the matter.
And by the way, if you could feel your "shock collar" on a low setting, you bought a bad one and how much you paid for it is irrelevant. I know every brand of equipment out there very well; most are not good. Again, a high end collar such as Dogtra 280 or 2300 is imperceptible to a human at its low settings. The better collars are on a rehostat with micro adjustments not big jumps. The vibration feature, not shock, is used 99% of the time. If stimulation is necessary, level of 25-50 work on most dogs. The feeling of that is similar to the electrical simulation devices used in physical therapy.
For what it is worth and I really want to end the collar drama here because it is so distracting...we train working dogs and obedience but none of the skills are learned with the E-collar. There is no need. Not only that, any negative reinforcement for a positive job is an oxymoron from any perspective and we just do not do it. The E-collar is used to control bad behavior and for recall in bad situations. We deal with many dogs that have drive the average person cannot imagine and they can have really bad tendencies. The e-collar can be a necessary component but not always. If you want to publicly debate this...let's go elsewhere.
"Per the OFA you started out great with Axel - getting his CHIC (fanconi, hips, eyes, elbows, patellas and thyroid), then you kind of fell behind the eight ball with Aru (eyes and fanconi only prior to her litter) then even less with Kaden and Phoenix (fanconi only (at this time) for their litter)"
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As for my testing of this litter and as I have stated before...all plans were to do the right thing but the timing Phoenix went into heat while we were gone training at it could not be helped. We had planned to breed her but not at the time it happened. There is no excuse and I said that before, too. I am trying to do the right thing and have asked questions about what is safe during pregnancy. I am aware of all testing but not what could be done during pregnancy, that was new and I wanted advice. I think that was the responsible thing to do and it would be nice to get some credit for it. What seems to have happened is even though I explained the situation, the lack of testing is being used to make it look like it was purposeful and meant to deceive.Phoenix was seen today by our vet and she will have patella done, hips later as well as Thyroid. Kaden is getting the fully Monty tomorrow.
As far as what we are doing with trying to produce a need for something that was not there before. I am not trying to convince you or any basenji person of the need for a detector dog. However, you have to admit that it is interesting and that is really why I bring it up. Phoenix is going to have five pups and there are no plans for more. If this program goes on, it will probably not be us doing it. Five puppies does not require a huge marketing scheme and I really don't need to sell them. If these pups go to work the basenji community will have very little to do with it but I was excited to tell the Basenji community about it.
Do you not like the idea that we can do something with the basenji because of some of their very unique traits? Does it really matter if it is not for a basenji owner? What if what is done here saves lives one day? Could that not be something to be happy with and of value? There is a very real need for an inconspicuous, nimble, and silent dog that is very careful about how it approaches things in the explosives detection field. Do you not agree that the traits I just mentioned could be attributed to our basenjis? I thought so and decided to get the nose and work drive for humans to go with it. Those traits can be seen vary reliably at seven weeks old. This is the age we test all of our working dogs at and we have never made a mistake. We pick a lot of puppies, too. I am quite certain that anything I test at seven weeks will be a mini mirror of what it will be as an adult. Hopefully, I have more than one or two pups that test well.
My initial draw to the basenji was the ability to hunt because it is one of my passions. What I found was that basenji hunting traits have been severely watered down in the United States. Very few people hunt their B's and I really don't think any breeding has been done with hunting in mind. Agility and lure do not count. The dog is touted as a hunter by many in the basenji world who abhor hunting and a general fancy that does not even recognize it as a field trial. That is a shame, in my opinion. This is one thing that I would like to see change. I did pick the best traits I could from show lines to come up with two hunters. Of all the pups tested from two litters, their were only two. That would not be the case if it were another field line of dogs I was testing. I bred those two in hopes of getting a better hunter and I did. But out of that litter, I only had two and picked one. Kaden was tested and chosen to take it one more step and I hope we have it. Is it guaranteed? No, is it probable that their will be better hunters than before, I think so.
In my opinion, I think we need to maintain hunting traits in the US dogs by recognizing those traits and breeding for them. If we do not, the American Basenji will NEVER be a hunting dog and should not be touted as one.
Please do me a big favor: If you really want to know what we do, come and find out for yourself. I do not want to fight with you or anyone else, but I will not roll over for misinformation.
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Just a few clarifications for those folks still interested in the thread and then I really should concentrate on other things, like work!
"Your key words are all obtained via an e-collar…".
Actually Jeff, I did not say that, what I said was - my concerns are puppy buyers might have expectations, and all of their expectations may be based on behaviors they see in your dogs, "behaviors obtained via the e-collar". I never said all of your dogs behaviors were/are obtained in that manner. I am sorry I was not more clear but I feel my concerns are still valid.
I don't expect you to agree and that is ok! Just as I do not expect you to feel the need to validate or rationalize why you use shock collars. I have already said, it is a personal choice.
"I use the collar to keep the dogs from getting into trouble and I have never implied or told you that I use the to get the "best" of of a dog. "
Sorry. I guess I misunderstood when you wrote:
"I also want to back up what another wrote that most working dog trainers use e-collars. That is the absolute truth. They do it because they work well an produce better dogs. I train dogs for life and death situations every day as do my peers. We all use e-collars."
I took this to mean a driving force for using the e-collar for you and your peers were to produce better dogs not to keep them out of harms way. My bad.
"You are presumptuous due to your emotional connection to the matter."
I am not the least bit emotionally connected to the subject of e-collars. I have used a shock collar, I feel they are a personal choice (hopefully a well trained one), just no longer my choice. I am not even really interested (as previously stated) about the use of them. My only concern was the use of e-collars to control the line of dog you listed as being for sale and how it could translate to those puppy buyers who might have unrealistic expectations of their new charges.
"There is a very real need for an inconspicuous, nimble, and silent dog that is very careful about how it approaches things in the explosives detection field."
As a total aside and not to create further discussion (i really do not have the time) but just an interesting (to me) observation - on one hand your use of the shock collar is to keep your dog from approaching danger while on the other you are training them to detect something that could blow them to smithereens.
Now then, I personally do not feel this breed is in danger of losing it's natural instincts as evidenced by the fact you could find hunters amongst show dogs. I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad.
Good luck with your soon to be charges.
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Now then, I personally do not feel this breed is in danger of losing it's natural instincts as evidenced by the fact you could find hunters amongst show dogs. I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad.
The breed has allready lost much of it's natural instincts. Compare the native stock to the pet Basenji's and there allready is a large difference. Both in size, looks and temperament. To say that there are still hunters amongst the show dogs, is a bit of an empty statement. No one hunts with their Basenji, so how can you tell? There is a big difference between hunting and just chasing whatever moves. And allmost all dogs will simply chase what moves, but that doesn't mean they have what it takes to be a good hunting dog. But on the other hand, since no one uses them for hunting, it might be that there are quit a few good hunting dogs amongst the show dogs, we just don't know.
And indeed the breed will be whatever we want to make it, but do we really want just another show dog? Is that what the future of the breed will be? Only breeding for whatever is wanted that moment in the show ring, and pretty much ignoring all of the characteristics that make a Basenji a Basenji? Then we will end up (as so many breeds allready did) with an empty (but good looking) shell that once was know as The Basenji, the great hunting companion… But that's another discussion. -
As a total aside and not to create further discussion (i really do not have the time) but just an interesting (to me) observation - on one hand your use of the shock collar is to keep your dog from approaching danger while on the other you are training them to detect something that could blow them to smithereens.
I know you do not have the time to respond but you had the time to post so I will elaborate on what your wrote because to people who might not be in the "know" might be mislead by the lack of foundation.
When training a dog for explosives detection there is no danger, only fun. There are no e-collars ever used for any reason. When deploying a dog for real explosives detection the handler and the dog are deployed together and if one makes the ultimate sacrifice, so does the other. This risk is made to protect others such as yourself in many public settings. The purpose of our efforts and we do not know if they will be successful yet, is to provide a dog that is small, quiet, nimble, cautious but without overt fear, and had great ability to work for a human without looking like it is doing the job. Part of the reason for this is that many IED's are remotely detonated. A big, supremely obvious dog attracts attention.
If anyone would like to know more about how and what we train for, feel free to write to me directly or open another post here. I am happy to answer questions openly and honestly.
Jeff
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I could not have said that better! Voodoo, you are so correct. And, by the way, Voodoo is the name of one of our hot GSD's going to CA for police work. She is one of our best trackers.
The precedent for what you say can be found in other breeds such as the bloodhound and American German Shepherd. Both breeds were originally working breeds with the bloodhound being very famous up to about WWII. Interestingly Dr. Whitney wrote about the differences between show hounds and the working stock, going so far as to show photographic changes that he noted had taken place. This was in 1947. His book has been long out of print but I was able to thumb through a friends' copy a few weeks ago. The show dog he talked about then is now the standard for the breed and the working dog he used and bred is now gone for the most part. In trying to get it back, other hound breeds from hunting lines are currently being used by a very few working dog breeders. The modern bloodhound, though touted to be the best tracker by show breeders, is usually not a good candidate. They are often too big, to slow, too grossly baggy, with bad eyes and horrible orthopedics. The other issue that has cropped up is a major case of shyness and phobic response to noise that is encountered with the many show hounds in the field. Many modern breeders say this is normal for bloodhounds in an attempt to rationalize what they see occurring, but the reality is the early manhunter hounds of the 19th and 20th century were relatively fearless and did not look like the dogs today. As for the GSD's, American law enforcement rarely uses the standard American show GSD for work and most dogs are imported out of CZ, Germany, Holland, Slovakia, and Belgium. The reason is the show dogs are not sound for the job due to the grossly exaggerated slanted posture that is the show standard today. The other factor is the working brain is less prevalent in the show GSD's.
Bloodhounds and GSD's are not basenjis but there are parralles here. We as a group of enthusiasts will lose the hunting traits of the basenji if we are not careful. Even with new stock coming from Africa, it will still occur. We will change the dog from what it was to something different and perhaps it has already happened. I have tested quite a few basenjis for hunting traits and found them lacking. I had no choice but to use show stock because that was all there was available at the time. When testing litters of puppies, most of the puppies did not pass and I was lucky to find a single dog out of the litter. This would be considered a bad situation by any hunting breeder. Even with the single litter that I bred for specifically for hunting, I was able to increase the number by two and picked one. I brought in Kaden who is 1/4 AF to hopefully change things a bit. He tested so far off the charts as a puppy that I was really amazed. This may not guarantee success.
Their is a Russian breeder who has a working line of dogs that the government protects and does not allow out of the country. His dogs are mongrels and are some of the best scent detection dogs there are, reportedly. His foundation stock was the jackal. This breeder recognized many traits in this wild dog that he knew would be good for work and he harnessed it. His efforts were featured on NatGeo a few years ago. This is what gave me the idea for the working Basenji. I recognized certain traits in my hunters that I knew would be good for work and a hoping to get them. I have no idea if this will work but if it does, it will be a very good thing.
My interest with Basenjis is preserving the native traits of the dog and using them for what the breed is supposed to do, hunting, and work if possible.
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My interest with Basenjis is preserving the native traits of the dog and using them for what the breed is supposed to do, hunting, and work if possible.
We need more people doing that, IMHO. A lot of breeds lose the traits they were originally bred for once the show people take over and start emphasizing "pretty" at the expense of ability. In Canada the Canadian Border Collie Association tried in vain to keep Border Collies out of conformation showing. They feel so strongly about this issue that people who show their dogs in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA. From my own, admittedly anecdotal, observations, I would say Basenjis have changed somewhat in the forty years since I had my first one. Contrary to popular opinion, I think the earlier dogs had better temperaments than the current crop. Also, I have noted that the "pretty" ones who do well at conformation seem to be less social and tolerant with other dogs and people. Again, this is an impression based on a limited sample, so may not be valid. Obviously environmental factors may also be at play here. But it would be good if these dogs could be used more in field trials (not just lure coursing) to retain their hunting abilities and desire to work with their humans in a cooperative way.
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I agree…there are a few basenji hunters out there but this number is incredibly small. I think if the American small game hunters knew a little more about what the Basenji could do then their would be an interest. Now that I am in GA, I have met a lot of squirrel, rabbit, and other small game hunters who have a interest in the basenji and it is really a matter of letting them see the dog in action. Axel tracked down a wounded deer last year after it had been lost for several hours. It was about 1/2 mile away and the trail was getting cold, but he nailed it in minutes. The hunter was very skeptical when he saw axel but was a believer afterwards.
I have fielded my B's with other normal hunting dogs and generally speaking, the B's last longer and are more cunning. The drawback is they often will not retrieve and getting the game from them if they catch it can be a chore. Axel had a habit of trying to ingest as much as possible before I caught him. The retrieval trait has been engineered through breeding and is not really all that natural, IMO, to semi wild or wild dogs. I'm not sure if it is a good thing or not to breed into the basenji but is also a helpful trait in training for other forms of work.
I do want to clarify things a bit about my choosing B from show stock. When I first got into the breed not all that long ago, I wrongly believed that the basenji was still used for hunting in the US because the subject of the small hunting dog from Africa was so prevalent on so much material I read. Once I started to investigate more, I found it was actually the opposite. Most people I contacted about hunting basenjis had no interest in talking to me about it and a couple were openly hostile. I did meet one breeder, Terri Gavaletz from Bushbabies Basenjis who mentored me quite a bit in the breed. She had bred for hunting traits for hunting dogs that were actually fielded in California over the years. They were few but she did it. She knew exactly what I wanted and helped me find it in Axel, my first B. Axel was amazing and taught me a lot about the breed. Terri also led me to the next B huntress I fielded from the lines of Linda Pence. Terri said there were some things she liked about Linda's dogs that would help me with my efforts. That seems to work out well to because Axel and Ru produced Phoenix who is better, by far, than both of her parents. She has the best nose I have ever seen for cold scent and if she has three tone missile lock on a critter it is almost impossible to get her off of it. I often have to find her at home after a hunt because I lose her to the critter...that is quite frightening. The good news is that she always comes home and she is tough as nails. The next dog in line was Kaden from Susan Stuart...Kaden is out of Carrie Jones' Conan and Susan's Phoenix. Again, I was directed to the line because of some traits that I was told might work very well for our project and Kaden was far above our expectations. So, I think we can still get the traits from Basenjis in the US, perhaps not as much as could be possible, but some, none the less.
I have since met some great people in the B world and hope to work with some of their dogs in the future. Dr. Jo's work is really exciting to me and I am anxiously hoping for an opportunity to test some of her dogs one day.
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I have attached a flicker link for any who might be interested in Kaden and Phoenix. There are photos of them working, training, and in the field. Feel free to browse the other thousands of photos on our Flicker page as well. Lot of working dog shots with other breeds.
Kaden and Phoenix Flicker Page
Thank you!
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Kaden had his thyroid, patellar, and hips done for the registry. CERF is scheduled for Monday for both.
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Real quick while I am on break, hopes this makes sense I am typing in a hurry.
Voodoo - I have only had one 100% domestic stock basenji since I have been in the breed; all of my other basenjis have been in excess of 30% New African and as high as 65% New African. My guys do not just chase furry critters around just for fun, they are dead serious and they trail, stalk, work in tandem and take down; I find their natural instincts to be quite intact.
As for the hunters amongst show dogs - that was a direct statement to Jeff who found two good hunting dogs from which to create a third even greater hunter - out of show stock. If he can find such wonderful hunters within the domestic population, I am certain anyone who has the desire and the ability to develop that side of their dog can also find great hunting dogs.
eeeefarms - my statement "I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad." seems to be misunderstood.
I feel the basenji breed is truly an all around and very versatile breed of dog. If we want our basenji to be a hunter and we have the necessary skills and the desires, I find the breed to have the ability to be trained to be a hunter or agility dog, therapy dog, obedience dog, coursing dog, racing dog, show dog, yadda, yadda.
They are the perfect size and shape and have supreme intelligence and tremendous natural, and often times untapped instincts, all they need is a guiding and shaping hand to make them all that we want them to be. I do not feel that specific lines of basenjis needs to be created to corner a market on any certain thing; I feel each and every basenji already has what it takes. That is what I meant by the breed is whatever we want to make it.
If this is jumbled or makes little sense, let me know and I will clarify further when I have time, later tonight or perhaps tomorrow.
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eeeefarms - my statement "I have personally found the breed to be whatever we want to make it good or bad." seems to be misunderstood.
No, I didn't misunderstand. And obviously we have not come so far that the original dog doesn't shine through. But experience with other breeds would suggest that vigilance is required so that we don't lose what we have. The Basenji is an ancient breed, but a relatively "new" one to the influence of conformation showing and the selection that entails. I hope you are right, and that we haven't lost anything…...but I wouldn't want to bet money on it.
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"In my opinion, I think we need to maintain hunting traits in the US dogs by recognizing those traits and breeding for them. If we do not, the American Basenji will NEVER be a hunting dog and should not be touted as one.
I agree wholeheartedly. The native hunting instincts are still present to some degree in our breed today- but who's to say they won't someday be lost if we continue to breed without any sort of emphasis or attention paid to those instincts?
Lure coursing is a fine activity; demonstrates prey drive, sure…..but at the end of the day it's a dog chasing plastic bags around a field. When I first began apprenticing with the hunting dog trainer I currently work for, this was one of the things he discussed with me in detail. The difference between a proven hunting dog's abilities on wild quarry....and a dog who can play a game in a controlled environment with a set of rules to follow. Almost any dog can play a game; but only a dog with the right level of genetic ability, drive & instinct can learn to hunt wild game WELL enough to consistently put meat on the table. A lot of things he said opened my eyes. Here we have a breed based on a handful of native dogs plucked from the bush a century ago, and since then maybe 10 people have made any real attempt to hunt with their dogs. It's a miracle the instinct hasn't been completely lost as it is.
We say the dog is a hunting hound based on its history....we all see indications that our dogs harbor their native instincts to some degree.....we enjoy the unique traits that make our breed what it is....so why isn't anyone working to PROVE that hunting ability and TEST those instincts so as to preserve them & improve future generations? Without proving ability AND working to preserve it, our breed is going to be nothing more than a backyard novelty with an interesting backstory. Realizing all of this made me realize that there is room for improvement. If the most anybody is doing with the Basenji to prove hunting ability is letting them loose on trash bags, how can we really say this is a hunting dog?
I don't think it's an issue of whether there will be "demand for hunting Basenjis"....please know I'm not talking about wanting to create a bench/field bloodline split like many sporting breeds have, where the "field bred" bloodlines are too hot & driven for the average pet home thereby making them undesirable for anyone but a hardcore hunter. IMO this would be a detriment to the breed. I am only saying there should be more of an effort to acknowledge the breed's potential and ability as a hunter, highlighting and preserving those traits. If a handful of us who enjoy hunting AND enjoy Basenjis get involved doing this, and we're able prove that these little dogs do a good job, then gradually there will be more of a demand. Right now this breed is not even on the radar in the hunting community and even if it were, there are too many unknowns for most people to feel confident messing with it. But all it takes is a few people to pioneer the effort- Jeff has a ton of training and hunting experience; if he can't figure out the best approach to use for hunt training Basenjis, nobody can. Someone like myself, I may not have anywhere near the level of experience he has but I do have all the resources I need right in my backyard- from the equipment to the fields to the pro-trainer-for-a-boss. With a little guidance from Jeff on how to approach the differences in Basenji temperament vs. a traditional bird dog, I am sure I could give it a darn good shot. And if a relative novice like me was successful, it might inspire someone else who doesn't have a ton of experience to go ahead and take on the challenge. And so on & so forth...the more people do it, the more information is shared, the easier it is for people to feel confident doing it themselves.
I've got to run so I'll finish this up with a picture of Tana, my puppymill rescue, flash-pointing a planted (pen raised) quail the very first time she'd ever been in a field about 2 years ago. Never been on birds, never been hunted, only been off-leash a few times but never in a wildlife-abundant place....and yet she put her nose in the wind, quartered, found the scent, flash pointed & held for about 20 seconds, then pounced and flushed the quail
If I had the $500 for the Astro GPS collar (not getting into the Ecollar thing, but I'd need it to locate her since she's smaller than a popcorn fart at 15 lbs, lol) I would totally take her hunting. Not sure if she could retrieve a pheasant to hand but I bet she'd have fun trying.
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Woofless, I just have to say, I love your style! That was a nice piece of writing, and gets your points across extremely well, in addition to being humourous and a good read. Thank you!
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Some definite good writing Danielle.
Your descripiton of Tana kind of proves one of my points - a puppy mill rescue being able to show such natural talent - tells me a basenjis natural hunting instincts is vastly untapped vs missing altogether.
Question for y'all - what is a true African hunting basenji and how are they utilized by their humans in Africa (not just how they hunt to fend for themselves but how are they used by the natives to put food on the table?)
Seems if folks want to keep the breed true to their roots we would want to know how they hunt in Africa, yes? And then try not to lose that specific quality?
So, what is their main purpose? Are they pointers, retrievers, flushers, drivers or ???
Certainly much of what I have read, heard and seen in pictures and videos makes me think they were mainly used to drive cloven or hoofed game into the hunters nets. Would certainly explain the gourd bells tied to neck or groin.
Assuming this is correct, what would be the best venue to perpetuate this specific trait? Hunting them in the field similarly to a sporting breed (pointing, flushing and retrieving) or would herding be more realistic since driving is like uncontrolled herding? Or is there something else?
If the perpetuation of thier innate skill is the goal, then it seems concerned members of the fancy might want to consider which venue would best maintain it and petition the AKC or equivalent to allow the breed to participate in it. Having the AKC or the like involved would be a good way to get more of the fancy involved as well which would then create more people breeding with these goals in mind.
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Question for y'all - what is a true African hunting basenji and how are they utilized by their humans in Africa (not just how they hunt to fend for themselves but how are they used by the natives to put food on the table?)
Seems if folks want to keep the breed true to their roots we would want to know how they hunt in Africa, yes? And then try not to lose that specific quality?
Do we really know how they are hunted? I don't see herding in this dog, driving game maybe, but not herding. Mostly the instinct to chase the prey if visible, and track it if not. Any hunting that utilizes those abilities would probably be a good direction to go. I think the main thrust of the argument is to keep that connection with their roots by using them in something real, not artificial. It does make a difference, IMHO. Any dog can be trained to more or less simulate a behaviour, but talent in the hunting field really can't be faked. That the dogs retain some of this despite not being used for it at this point in time, doesn't mean it won't eventually be bred out if going forward selection is based only on physical appearance.
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Hi Danielle,
I agree with you on every level. However, I think the key to the basenji being a hunter in the US and maintaining high end traits is going to have to come from outside the basenji community. I have not been in the B community for very long but I have met a lot of people here. And though most are supportive and like to hear about my hunters, there are maybe 6 of us that I know of that are fielding dogs on game. The basenji world is primarily made up of people that just don't have a interest in hunting themselves and probably never will. Sport like lure is probably as close as we might come and that, as said so well before, is not hunting. A fast dog that likes to chase is only a minor component of hunting. If some of the die hard rabbit, squirrel, or other small game hunters get into a try hunter basenji, the basenji will become an instant hit because it will blow away the competition.
A hunter basenji is very similar to a coyote in ability and IMO, the coyote is the best field hunter on the North American continent. There is no other canid that has been as resilient as the coyote. Their geographical range is larger now than ever before, being in found in some places that never had a record of them before. I was an avid predator hunter for some time and had the opportunity to watch the coyote at work and put myself up against their abilities at the same time. They are amazingly intelligent creatures with an ability to calculate and problem solve all while on the run. I often used my basenjis to help me detect them from a distance. What I saw in the coyote, I see SOMETIMES in the basenji. Very few can match the cold, killing, calculation of this wild canid. However, my guess is that some of the good African stock just might.
A wild hunter has natural selection to determine who survives and thrives. The dumb dogs and those that have lessor abilities do not procreate and die off. It is the key to survival of a species. The wild dogs that survive and thrive are the top dogs in all levels. This is where the skills come from. And yes, perhaps many basenjis have little glimmers of those qualities to this day, but I will bet that none can match the natural selection survivor. This fact is important to keep in mind when one considers true hunting canids.
I have not been to Africa, never run with the B's there, and only know what I have read and seen on film, however, it appears to me that these dogs are left to their own devices more often than not and have a semi-wild life. In the field when hunting, it appears there is no control really, and what is occurring is the human hunters are pre-determining what the dogs will do in a given geographical area and putting up nets in front of them. The bell gourds are not used for control but to determine where the dogs are in relationship to the net so the human hunter can be prepared to move or adjust accordingly. This is really no different than how humans have hunted with dogs for thousands of years. Driving game to the human is simply the first and easiest method to hunt with a dog. The difference between the Af dogs and their Euro and North American counter parts from a historical perspective is the Basenji does not bark and make noise while hunting; thus the need for the bell. This also is a trait that is shared by many wild canid hunters like the wolf, coyote, and jackal) The other thing that separates the basenji from the Euro dogs, (perhaps not the native American dogs of North America), is that the European dogs during their evolution were actively bred for certain qualities and given much succor by their human partners I think to a much larger extent. They were also interbred actively with other types of dogs to increase the potential for certain traits. What this did was water down some of the survival skills while building other specific types of hunting traits and drive; e.g. pointing, flushing, retrieving.
The Basenji, IMO, was a different story and perhaps it is because there was not a lot of other dogs to mix with and the human relationship was more tribal/ hunter-gatherer vs. the Euro counterpart of evolving, modern society. The bottom line, however, appears to be that because of the tribal-hunter/ gatherer type relationship the basenji was left to its own devices historically speaking and though there was human intervention, natural selection occurred to a larger extent than the basenjis euro and American canid cousins. Now this is not a fact and only based on what I am surmising, but I believe the reason why the basenji maintains certain wild qualities above and beyond standard C. familiaris is because it was isolated for so long and left to its own devices and that time frame was not all that long ago when compared to the Euro or American dogs from a historical context. However, it is clearly obvious that times are changing in the natural geographic range of the Basenji and modern human influence including other breeds of dogs has caused the breed to evolve and become more modernized even in Africa. Obviously, not to the extent as here in the US, but evolution is occurring and what was then, may not be the same today.
This brings us to the modern basenji in America. Perhaps, we have maintained the form of the dog is a way that is historically accurate, but we have not maintained the traits or semi-natural selection that made the basenji. That is impossible because we as a modern society do not interact with our dogs like the basenjis of old. Anything we do as far as selective breeding for any purpose cannot maintain semi-wild natural selection. Certainly, breeding for appearance or a specific sport will further water down and ancient genetic traits. I think it is important for anyone reading this to not be misled by what I am doing either. It is equally impossible for me to maintain these traits in total. What I have done, is simply recognize SOME of the glimmers of wildness in the modern basenji and tried to harness them for my own purposes. I feel some of these old, wild traits are what is missing from our modern working dog. Like my ancestors before me, I am recognizing traits and harnessing them to my advantage. In many ways, this may preserve some of the old basenji but it is not preserving the entire dog as it once was. I am not sure what once was even exists anymore. I feel it is very important for all of us to understand that this is what we are all doing. What we have now is a shadow of what once was. It is a facsimile and probably not an all together accurate one.
I truly wished that I lived at the time the first basenjis were discovered. I am sure they were marvelous.
Jeff
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I have heard this year from a breeder in Alberta how her two 'show quality' stock pulled down a deer and killed it. I entertain the fact that they were bred for a purpose…..since they have not been crossed to do what 'we' as humans want them to do they still have that natural instinct and predatory drive. My male would make a fantastic hunter.....he has already almost got that darn squirrel a couple of times. Since their instinct has not been bred out of them they are all going to be instinctual hunters.
