Red and white with tri-factor

[tanza]

Ah, yes Lisa, thanks….. I remember that same coloring from the dogs that Dayna Johnson in GA was breeding when she bought that dog from AZ and started using him at stud. I questioned her and where she got the sire of those pups and found out that it was from AZ. Futher investigation showed it came from the person in AZ that was crossing FT with Basenjis and then registering them as Basenjis. He was called on that with at least one litter and AKC pulled the papers. That was the first thing I noticed about her pups, the coloring was of Fox Terriers and also the head shape which is the same on this particular dog also. That is typical of the FT head.

[krunzer]

Omg! There are people out there who actually do that? Cross breed and then register them as a purebred??? I must be fairly naive about the purebred dog world….

[tanza]

@krunzer:

Omg! There are people out there who actually do that? Cross breed and then register them as a purebred??? I must be fairly naive about the purebred dog world….

Yes, there are, this person in AZ did it for years. As I remember not only was this person using Fox Terriers, but Whippets also since they competed in Lure Coursing. And has since stopped breeding due to health reasons, but the offspring of these dogs are still around and with papers and being used. It started as I remember (but Linda S can expand when she pops in since she is in that area were it happened) before AKC started with DNA requirements for breeding and since this is NOT a requirement unless you are a high volume breeder, it happens. Same with people that would breed a litter and use papers from a dog long dead or very old. It was then with older dogs that AKC put the requirement that on a dog over 12 there would be a sperm count requirement with any breeding. The DNA for parentage was done for high volume breeders (mostly for puppy mills and some BYB) was then also introduced.

In the case of these dogs, the first that I saw the pictures of her pups (Dayna in GA) I knew there was something different about them… and asked about the breeding. And a few years before this, there was a dog that she was using at stud that was a Brindle, however the pedigree of this dog indicated that there is no way this dog could be a Brindle. She had gotten that dog from another BYB in GA that was going out of business (Robyn from Sherwood Basenjis can expand on this when she pops into the Forum).

One reason that I think AKC should require DNA parentage for any and all breeding dogs.

[curlytails]

Wow okay, didn't mean to open up a can of worms with this thread. I just thought there was something different about the coloration and wanted to ask. I've looked at pretty much every single public BRAT listing for the past couple years, and aside from the Wimauma pups, this was the most "unusual" BRAT I'd seen. So I was curious.

[krunzer]

Wow that is scary, that there are actually people out there who do this sort of thing. I guess it wouldn't be hard to do…..you could probably just pick the name of a male or female to put on the registry forms. I myself have not done a breeding yet. I sent my female back to the breeder to be bred and got a puppy back. I guess it shows that you should really do your research on a breeder before purchasing a puppy.

[tanza]

@krunzer:

Wow that is scary, that there are actually people out there who do this sort of thing. I guess it wouldn't be hard to do…..you could probably just pick the name of a male or female to put on the registry forms. I myself have not done a breeding yet. I sent my female back to the breeder to be bred and got a puppy back. I guess it shows that you should really do your research on a breeder before purchasing a puppy.

Exactly…

And I have sent a private email to Linda S to chime in when she has time to her knowledge of this breeder. But this is why that some of us on the Forum ask the "hard" questions when people are considering buying a pup.

[tanza]

@curlytails:

Wow okay, didn't mean to open up a can of worms with this thread. I just thought there was something different about the coloration and wanted to ask. I've looked at pretty much every single public BRAT listing for the past couple years, and aside from the Wimauma pups, this was the most "unusual" BRAT I'd seen. So I was curious.

No can of worms… you asked a question and got a response... it is not a happy thing that people are doing this... but I am sure it happens in all breeds.. again the reason for knowing the breeder that you are considering getting a puppy from.... and researching that breeder

And you are right... there is something about the color that would raise flags if this was really a purebred

[agilebasenji]

@tanza:

No can of worms… you asked a question and got a response... it is not a happy thing that people are doing this... but I am sure it happens in all breeds.. again the reason for knowing the breeder that you are considering getting a puppy from.... and researching that breeder

And you are right... there is something about the color that would raise flags if this was really a purebred

Oh yes! Can you say "silver labs "?

I remember hearing about the fox terrier/basenji breeding. I like ft's and I love my basenjis,but why on earth would you mixthe two????

[krunzer]

It is nice to have the insite of reputable breeders on this site. Seeing how some things are unbenownst to me there must be a lot more people out there considering basenji's or other breeds who need to know this type of information as well. Thank you Tanza.

[tanza]

@agilebasenji:

Oh yes! Can you say "silver labs "?

I remember hearing about the fox terrier/basenji breeding. I like ft's and I love my basenjis,but why on earth would you mixthe two????

The person that did these breedings and also with crossing with Whippets was to win at lure coursing… that as far as I know was the only reason.

[sinbaje]

A BRAT representative has been notified of the breeder (not the person Pat alludes to but the dogs do come down from all of his "stock") who has been contacted and would not confirm or deny he was the breeder, but did refuse to claim Dewgan.

However through research I was able to find a FB page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Basenjiplanetcom/202323096448267

and website:

http://www.basenjiplanet.com/

Showing the person BRAT contacted is in fact the breeder. And has bred their two "basenjis" five times (for fun and for pets per FB) and has a new breeding female out of a Champion male and a female from question heritage.

BRAT has been updated with all of this info.

[curlytails]

Wow, impressive research. While I'm asking about colors, what's a "reverse brindle," and do any other Basenji breeders use this term to describe coat color??

Anyway, all puppies are cute, no matter where they came from, but the "fun" quickly stops being so innocent when just one of them ends up in rescue. At least BRAT will be able to account for him better than his breeder ever could…

[debbi j.]

It's ok to use the pictures here. The consensus from the Pix-List is that Dewgan should be described as a red and white with a mask, an AKC acceptable description.

This dog is in Arizona and is listed on the BRAT website.

debbi j.

[tanza]

@sinbaje:

A BRAT representative has been notified of the breeder (not the person Pat alludes to but the dogs do come down from all of his "stock") who has been contacted and would not confirm or deny he was the breeder, but did refuse to claim Dewgan.

However through research I was able to find a FB page:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Basenjiplanetcom/202323096448267

and website:

http://www.basenjiplanet.com/

Showing the person BRAT contacted is in fact the breeder. And has bred their two "basenjis" five times (for fun and for pets per FB) and has a new breeding female out of a Champion male and a female from question heritage.

BRAT has been updated with all of this info.

Thanks for the update Linda…

[dcmclcm4]

I remember this breeder. Was he breeding the Bs/Fox Terriers in the mid to late 90s?

This dog on Petfinder with another rescue reminds me of a B/Fox Terrier mix. What do you think?

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/20477058

Jennifer

[tanza]

@dcmclcm4:

I remember this breeder. Was he breeding the Bs/Fox Terriers in the mid to late 90s?

This dog on Petfinder with another rescue reminds me of a B/Fox Terrier mix. What do you think?

http://www.petfinder.com/petdetail/20477058

Jennifer

Could be, but I would guess the jack/basenji cross works too

[tanza]

@debbi:

It's ok to use the pictures here. The consensus from the Pix-List is that Dewgan should be described as a red and white with a mask, an AKC acceptable description.

This dog is in Arizona and is listed on the BRAT website.

debbi j.

My personal opinion is that this should be listed as a mix

[Dan]

@curlytails:

I saw a striking color pattern on a rescue Basenji today, and was just wondering how often it comes up in normal breeding? He is listed as a red and white with tri-factor.

These pics are from the BRAT website (sorry if that's not okay… I can take them down if so; the direct link is here). Anyway, I was just curious as to how this coloration came about.

(And here's hoping this special guy gets a great home!)

I was the breeder of this Dog. Out of five litters with I think 23 pups three of them turned out that color. We kept one of them we liked it so much. The others were red and whites. Yes it is very nice color despite what some of these people are saying about these dogs. You should see Kato the one we kept.

[curlytails]

@Dan:

I was the breeder of this Dog. Out of five litters with I think 23 pups three of them turned out that color. We kept one of them we liked it so much. The others were red and whites. Yes it is very nice color despite what some of these people are saying about these dogs. You should see Kato the one we kept.

Dan, I have no problem with Dewgan's color. Or Kato's, whom I do see on your website. They are beautiful dogs. But the lack of health testing and refusal to take responsibility for a dog that you bred, when the opportunity was made available to you by the rescue, is what I find upsetting. You're not even sure how many puppies you produced, which indicates to me that you haven't followed through to keep track of health problems or where any of your dogs ultimately ended up.

When a breeder's standards are this low, I find little room to be charitable.

[Dan]

@tanza:

Yes, there are, this person in AZ did it for years. As I remember not only was this person using Fox Terriers, but Whippets also since they competed in Lure Coursing. And has since stopped breeding due to health reasons, but the offspring of these dogs are still around and with papers and being used. It started as I remember (but Linda S can expand when she pops in since she is in that area were it happened) before AKC started with DNA requirements for breeding and since this is NOT a requirement unless you are a high volume breeder, it happens. Same with people that would breed a litter and use papers from a dog long dead or very old. It was then with older dogs that AKC put the requirement that on a dog over 12 there would be a sperm count requirement with any breeding. The DNA for parentage was done for high volume breeders (mostly for puppy mills and some BYB) was then also introduced.

In the case of these dogs, the first that I saw the pictures of her pups (Dayna in GA) I knew there was something different about them… and asked about the breeding. And a few years before this, there was a dog that she was using at stud that was a Brindle, however the pedigree of this dog indicated that there is no way this dog could be a Brindle. She had gotten that dog from another BYB in GA that was going out of business (Robyn from Sherwood Basenjis can expand on this when she pops into the Forum).

One reason that I think AKC should require DNA parentage for any and all breeding dogs.

Pat,
You should know better than to say what you are saying. You are implying commercial fraud in a public domain which leaves you wide open to lawsuits. Since I have purchased dogs from this man whom you do not know and are spreading gossip about. If I bothered to do DNA tests what do you think I might do with the results? That is all the laws require in most states is to prove that what you put up on a public domain was a lie and hurt someones interests. So I suggest you take all of this down.
Did this man breed Basenji's with Whippets? Yes he tried it. Is that somehow against the law? No. Do some people not like the fact that he did that. Yes. Does that mean all of the Basenji's he had are mixed breed? Give me a break. Words like "Did it for Years" "Passed off the dogs as AKC registered Basenji's," "Their papered offspring are still around." You are way out of line.

Dan Martinovich
basenjiplanet.com