Looks like you said that difference in your second post, so we are on the same page.
Separation Anxiety and Re-Crate Training
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Debra,
I did misread your post, I thought you were saying the reason is not important. My bad, I totally agree with the behavior modification approach just thought some insight to why in our case helped the method. I think we are probably agreeing more than I thought. Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
Therese -
I had an interesting conversation with a behaviorist friend of mine several months back that has made me rethink a bit on separation anxiety. Her question to me was, "In your experience do basenjis in general demonstrate classic separation anxiety or are they frustrated by confinement?" In thinking about it, I realized that really what I see in basenjis in a spectrum of behavior. Some have the type anxiety that Debra describes where any human present is enough. Some have the type of anxiety that Therese describes where it is the owners that are important. Some basenjis don't care so much about the people, they just don't want to be confined.
Knowing what is triggering the behavior is important in modifying it. That is one reason why so often the recommendation is to find someone local because they can observe what is actually happening with that dog.
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Well, the thing is, on some levels if you know the cause, or can really guess it.. of course that is the aspect you address. I just meant if you don't KNOW, don't make it up… you can treat without knowing. And seeing as they are dogs, you may not ever KNOW.
If the dog is fine home alone but hates a crate, you work on crate or options to crating.
If the dog is bored in the crate, you get a huge one or give toys and things to keep busy to help.
If your dog has actual separation anxiety about being alone, you try to desensitize it, or get it a companion, or get a pet sitter.
I didn't mean to say it is not ever important, it can be.
But to make up some silly thing like dogs are worried their owner needs them to protect them.. that bugs me. If you KNOW the reason, address it. If not, then move on and try each area til you find what works.
I truly think ALL breeds of dogs run the spectrum in why. And for the most part, even if you don't know why, you can still work on eliminating the behaviors.
That said, dogs with serious phobias, be it noise or separation anxiety... I have seen some horrible cases where the owners managed to really make very little dent and barely keep livable. Please don't anyone think I imagine it is simple or easy fix.
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I had an interesting conversation with a behaviorist friend of mine several months back that has made me rethink a bit on separation anxiety. Her question to me was, "In your experience do basenjis in general demonstrate classic separation anxiety or are they frustrated by confinement?" In thinking about it, I realized that really what I see in basenjis in a spectrum of behavior. Some have the type anxiety that Debra describes where any human present is enough. Some have the type of anxiety that Therese describes where it is the owners that are important. Some basenjis don't care so much about the people, they just don't want to be confined.
Knowing what is triggering the behavior is important in modifying it. That is one reason why so often the recommendation is to find someone local because they can observe what is actually happening with that dog.
I agree Lisa. I think true separation anxiety is different than 'confinement anxiety'. I would venture to guess that true separation anxiety in Basenjis occurs at the same rate as it does in other breeds…but I do think that Basenjis might be more prone to 'confinement anxiety'. To this day, Querk, at 12 years old will do whatever it takes to try to get out of a crate, for as long as it takes...on Christmas day he made his mouth bleed, and broke apart a wire crate. But he is happy as a clam left alone in the house.
I think we are all in agreement that knowing the trigger is critical to behavior mod in this situation...but knowing WHY or, what the dog is thinking, is not really important.
I wanted to add, that although the "why" may not be important...lots of us find it fun to speculate about what dogs are thinking. I have the same preoccupation with trying to guess mixed breeds...it doesn't really matter, but the speculation is fun!
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@Therese:
Debra,
I did misread your post, I thought you were saying the reason is not important. My bad, I totally agree with the behavior modification approach just thought some insight to why in our case helped the method. I think we are probably agreeing more than I thought. Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
ThereseThanks and sorry if my post sounded I meant it is never important. Having worked with everything from child abuse to marriage counseling to educational counseling… well I just can't imagine not thinking the cause can be everything.
And yeah we probably agree a lot. -
LOL, I spend a lot of time imagining WHY my dogs do things.
Andrea, I am lucky to not have had any of my own dogs have separation anxiety. Fosters and rescue, yes.
But all 3 of my basenji went through "i hate the crate/confinement". Cara still caterwauls if she sees me and is in her crate, but at least she has stopped biting the rails. I was afraid I would have to switch crate types, but she stopped. Had a friend with dog with wire that actually broke his jaw.
But back to known or guessed causes… The worse rescue I ever got for rehab was a Lhasa Apso, who literally lost bowel control if you got her near a crate. She had been locked in a crate and left in a basement, fed but lived in the crate, for we don't know how long. I spent 8 mos before I attempted to start getting her used to a crate again. And I placed her with someone who had a large cat room where she lived out her life with the cats and only was in a large kennel when she had to go to the vets. I agree knowing her history helped a lot.
BUT, I did "guess" one thing. She was afraid of the dark. As the sun went down she watched the windows and the fearful biting escalated. I am willing to bet that basement had little windows that went pitch black at night. But I don't know. And ultimately it didn't matter... we put her on prozac, kept night lights on, and eventually she stopped watching the windows and losing it at sunset.
I do know you couldn't pay me to rehab another one, lol. No muzzle with a dog that bites is not good. And they have razor blade teeth designed over centuries to rip yak meat. And yes, normally this dog would have been put down, but rescue wanted to give her their all because of the horrible abuse they took her from.
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Well, I real the book, The Dog Listener. Now my husband is reading it. From the way the conversation has progressed I can see people have a variety of opinions on her method
I don't have a particularly strong view either way. I'm sure her method has strength and weaknesses. My husband noticed in the first chapter that she says Homo sapiens emerged from Neanderthals, which we no longer believe to be the case. I believe that doesn't, however, mean her method is totally useless.I'm ready to choose a method and stick to it until it works. Jan Fennel's is appealing to me in some keys ways, so I'm going with it. Today is day one, over the next 48 hours I will be taking control of the pack through simple and subtle messages. I'm optimistic and have seen some results already.
It's pretty interesting, actually. The first step is sending signals that I am the leader whenever we are reunited. This involves intentionally and consistently ignoring the dog as they go through their "repertoire". For Lola this means whining, starting at me, pawing at me, standing between my legs, etc. I have been ignoring her, which can be a challenge. For example, she has tried to get up on my lap, but I preempt that by standing up and turning my back to her. When she has clearly finished her "repertoire" and is calm and disengaged for at least 5 minutes, I call her to "come" and give a treat and some affection. So far, I think this whole process is working. Right now she's curled up in the back of her crate!
I'll keep you all updated. -
I wish you the very best of luck, our Luci responded very much the same. I totally agree with not liking all of her ideas but I certainly found her technique helped me with the seperation anxiety of our girl. The most rewarding thing for me was my girl (Luci) seemed to be so much more at ease with life overall.
As I said before, a large crate, small crate, wire crate, no crate, in the car, in the house and then a second basenji didn't help. This approach did and we have used it ever since with all our dogs and knock on wood we have not had seperation anxiety again in the dogs that live with me.
I also have used this technique on two dogs we fostered for rescue and it worked. It may be the technique is just changing my behavior that allows a calm place for my dog but whatever it is about this worked for us.
Please keep us posted, I know how frustrating this can be and I really felt for you which is why I posted to begin with.
Therese -
Debra,
I totally agree sometimes the crate can be the issue, we have seen dogs (like my mom's shih tzu) have what appeared to be a fear of being confined, he would chew his own paws, but only in wire pens. He traveled with us in our motorhome in a varikennel and never got the least bit upset. I would have given anything to know what triggered fear of wire pens. Guess we'll never know.I have always wondered why those dog psycics always say dogs think they are people, why not lions or elephants. We joke all the time about putting human emotions on dogs, most of the time we believe our dogs think we are complete idiots. I suppose we must look like we do everything the hard way, especially to a basenji.
Therese -
Re Jan Fennell - like many of these 'trainers' you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Much can be learnt from listening to others' ideas as on here we can all learn form each other.
I did actually attend a seminar where Jan Fennell was the speaker. Yes she was full of herself and what she'd achieved but was quite humble about the dogs who'd benefited from advice given to their owners.
We had many dog behaviourists attending and she was questioned quite rigorously but actually held her own.
In my opinion if one dog is helped by using one of her ideas that is good.
And in my opinion,sometimes in cases of abuse it can be helpful to ascertain the why of the resulting behaviour.
I also think that anthromorphism can be dangerous - Basenjis are Basenjis and not people, I agree.
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Here's an update: We've ditched the strict method from the Dog Listener book, but are still utilizing some of the tactics. I would say that Lola is doing better. We've ditched the crate when leaving her alone, because she has now figured out how to undue the latch on the door.
We have a trainer coming to visit our home tomorrow, which we're looking forward to. One of the hardest parts has been deciding on a plan to stick with, so we're optimistic that we're heading in a good direction.
Also, we're finally seriously considering adopting a second dog, so that Lola has a buddy. We've found a possible match and hope top meet him this week.
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Yes, Lovinglola, that's the way to go in my opinion - read all you can from behaviourists etc. and choose what suits your particular dog.
I agree that confinement is more of a problem to a Basenji than separation anxiety. In all my experience I've found that Basenjis are often quite happy about being left and leaving them unconfined by a crate works well. Yes they may destroy one or two things but usually in play rather than stress. I've fostered many Basenjis over several years, mainly from a kennel environment, and this is my experience from those dogs.
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I Have to say from reading all this , that guess I have been really lucky so far. My experience has been very different. Thought Basenjis were fine with confinement because I have never had a problem with Ayo and the crate, or being alone. He is alone in one of my apartments bedrooms for 4 hours in the morning, and about 3 and 1/2 hours in the afternoon, with his crate in the from opened and his marrow bones and toys and water. He is locked in his crate for 4 hours in the morning three times a week , when I have a lady that comes to clean. He is also crated when I take him with me to friends and family for a couple of hours depending!
I was trying to see if there was something that I do or have done that could be useful to you, but I think maybe I'm just lucky. I do know that At the beginning I made it a point not to fuss about leaving or when I got home. I found that whenever I got anxious , he would get anxious. And also never take him out when he was complaining , only when he calmed down. I think it has a lot to do with being calm.. -
I also have never had my own pets have separation or crate anxiety. It is usually the way they are raised. They got this pup at a year old, already with issues. Hopefully they can retrain her.
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Lovinglola, thanks for the update. I have wondered how you and your girl were doing. I hope the behaviorist can offer some help. I know your frustration and feel for you and your girl, we'll keep our fingers crossed you find her comfort zone whatever it may be.
Best of Luck and please let us know what happens and what ends up working for her.
Therese -
We had a trainer over yesterday to help us work through this separation anxiety. It was a good visit, reassuring and informative. The bottom line: there's no magic cure. Helping Lola overcome her anxiety will take time and patience.
Our plan is to essentially desensitize her to the cues that we are leaving and gradually get her comfortable with being left alone. This means that in the meantime we cannot leave her alone, because each time she goes into panic mode that causes us to go backwards in progress. So, we're working on finding a place where she can be happy and calm while we're away. That's the difficult first step, but we have some ideas and leads. Hopefully one will pan out.
We are also taking her in to the vet to get a prescription for doggy prozac. Her case is bad enough - she cannot be left alone for any amount of time - that medication may be helpful. It was recommended that we give her about four weeks for the meds to build up and start having an effect before we start the training. Yes, this will be a long process.
We also decided that there's not much point to using the crate. That causes her to panic more and she breaks out anyway.
We discussed getting a second dog. Our trainer basically said it's a gamble, which is what I was thinking. A buddy could help with Lola's anxiety. On the other hand, a new dog could actually develop anxiety from being with Lola. That would not be a good development! So it seems the best idea is to get Lola to a better place before adding a new dog. That makes me a little sad, because I was getting excited about that possibility, but we have to accept the reality of our situation.
That's the basic summary. Obviously, we discussed it all in far more detail. We worked on some other things too, like loose-leash training. She did well and I can see us making good improvements there. Overall, I fell clearer about how to approach this problem. I'm happy to share more if anyone's curious.
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All very interesting - reember patience is essential because i'm sure there'll be times when you'll doubt. I suggest that you keep a day to day diary and so you can look back to see improvements however gradual. I can assure you that this will help you to persevere.
Yes, please, do keep us updated (I'm sure I don't speak just for myself).
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Yes please share as it progresses.
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I'm so glad to hear you have a promising path forward. You have proven your patience so far so I hope for all your sake a happy ending is in sight. Best of luck and please do keep posting on her progress.
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@Therese:
I'm so glad to hear you have a promising path forward. You have proven your patience so far so I hope for all your sake a happy ending is in sight. Best of luck and please do keep posting on her progress.
I agree with Therese…. sounds like you found a good resource with some great ideas to help... and agree that you have really put forth your patience to work through the problem. I will say that I do know it is not an easy fix, but in it for the long haul.... as they say... nothing in life is easy... and bless you for not giving up!!!
