Peeing in the crate

[lvoss]

I have out training my own dogs today so have come in late on this discussion.

It really sounds like Penny has an issue with anxiety which is causing her to pee and poop when left alone. Since she also is not keen on the crate, crating her is only causing more anxiety. There is a lot that you will need to work on and it would be really good if you were able to consult with a behaviorist and if that isn't feasible sometimes just getting into a good positive reinforcement training class with a trainer you can talk to about at home issues can make a real difference. In the meantime, start building positive association with the crate or maybe even set up an ex-pen and use that instead. Feed her there and give her special rewards there so it becomes a place she has lots of positive experiences associated with before you have to start leaving her there which is what triggers the anxiety. Consider using a DAP diffuser in the room with her to see if it helps keep her calm and build up time if possible.

I have a dog with crate anxiety and even at 13 years old he isn't really over it but luckily for us he is not destructive and doesn't have separation anxiety just crate anxiety so he can be left alone in the house and not have problems.

[DebraDownSouth]

@westcoastflea1:

well deb its nice to see you back in your usual form

youve been so nice lately i was getting worried, thought maybe youd been taken over by the pod people
glad to see thats not the case

My dear, I am nice when warranted and respond in kind to posts like yours.

[pennypen]

@lvoss:

I have out training my own dogs today so have come in late on this discussion.

It really sounds like Penny has an issue with anxiety which is causing her to pee and poop when left alone. Since she also is not keen on the crate, crating her is only causing more anxiety. There is a lot that you will need to work on and it would be really good if you were able to consult with a behaviorist and if that isn't feasible sometimes just getting into a good positive reinforcement training class with a trainer you can talk to about at home issues can make a real difference. In the meantime, start building positive association with the crate or maybe even set up an ex-pen and use that instead. Feed her there and give her special rewards there so it becomes a place she has lots of positive experiences associated with before you have to start leaving her there which is what triggers the anxiety. Consider using a DAP diffuser in the room with her to see if it helps keep her calm and build up time if possible.

I have a dog with crate anxiety and even at 13 years old he isn't really over it but luckily for us he is not destructive and doesn't have separation anxiety just crate anxiety so he can be left alone in the house and not have problems.

Thank you … someone earlier had mentions DAP and i am going to look into that. I agree with you that its deffinitaly an anxiety issue with not just the crate but separation from us as well.

I did try the first 3 months to feed her in the crate and she would eat her food but would stretch if she had to to keep at least one toe out it seemed lol She use to take treats when i would put her in the crate but now she refuses to take anything once she is in the crate and have been this way since i'd say 8 months. It's like she is telling me "no i will not be bribbed to like this place".
Thank you again for all your input i do appreciate it a lot.

[lvoss]

What she is really saying is that her anxiety about the crate is so great that not even food is good enough to relieve that anxiety so she can't make the positive association you are trying to build. You will really need to change the picture for her and take it really slow to build positive associations with a place that she can be confined.

[listeme]

@lvoss:

What she is really saying is that her anxiety about the crate is so great that not even food is good enough to relieve that anxiety so she can't make the positive association you are trying to build. You will really need to change the picture for her and take it really slow to build positive associations with a place that she can be confined.

This is what we have learned with the things that Simon is afraid of – the not taking treats is actually a pretty sure bet that it is based in fear.

Anxiety and fear are not very different, so I think this is a really good clue.

[westcoastflea1]

if you think for even a micro second that letting someone know that may have been heavy handed (i will freely admit and actually apologize for), that sometimes you need to listen to what your dog is trying to tell you and do what is necessary to deal with the real problem not the symptom IN ANY WAY excuses the kind of inappropriate personal attack that you just engaged in you are dead wrong

i have done a lot of reading on this forum since i started fostering and have found that your replies are by far the rudest and most offensive of any member here

you seem to think that because you slid from your mothers womb a fully fledged professional dog trainer that that somehow gives you the right to be offensive, smug, conceited and just plain nasty to anyone you feel is not your equal in the dog world

and since you obviously feel that no one here IS your equal you are rude and nasty most of the time

how many times in past posts have you said "im so upset angry etc etc that i have to walk away from the computer"
might be fun to make a compilation of all the rude things you have said to people in the past, im sure take up at least 3 or 4 pages

I find the fact that you are always talking about your rotties to be very revealing

what is it they say about people resembling their dogs ?
it must be true since you are definitely in attack mode at least 75% of the time

the double standard by which you live is absolutely laughable

its alright for you to be offensive or say something that is not helpful the way that i did tonight

but god forbid somebody else should do so

cause good old debra is right there on the attack

DOWN GIRL DOWN !! enough already!

vent your anger elsewhere and learn how to differ with other peoples opinions appropriately

[pennypen]

@westcoastflea1:

I find the fact that you are always talking about your rotties to be very revealing

what is it they say about people resembling their dogs ?
it must be true since you are definitely in attack mode at least 75% of the time

the double standard by which you live is absolutely laughable

its alright for you to be offensive or say something that is not helpful the way that i did tonight

if you aren;t going to constructivly contrubute and insist on attacking people trying to give me advice than i would like to ask you to stop replying to this post.

[pennypen]

@listeme:

This is what we have learned with the things that Simon is afraid of – the not taking treats is actually a pretty sure bet that it is based in fear.

Anxiety and fear are not very different, so I think this is a really good clue.

Do you think she is actually afraid of the crate?! Thats is really troubling to me and makes me more determind to try and fix this problem or find a better solutions in the house ….

[lvoss]

As listme said, anxiety and fear really are not too different and anxiety can definately be fear based.

[westcoastflea1]

oh but pennypen although you absolutely personally attacked me as well i havent said anything to you about it
lets leave it that way shall we

[tlish]

wow! this post has been verrry interesting, to say the least.

to the OP, you are totally not alone, which i think you've seen here. my b also doesn't like her crate, not to the extent of yours, but still, she whines and grumbles a bit. you know what? i whine and grumble a bit about having to go work for 8 hours a day, too! it's life. and i'm grateful for my job because it pays for me to have comfortable free time. and i'm sure suki is grateful for my job, too, because it pays for her free time. don't beat yourself up. you are doing the right thing by seeking advice. i've recently read some good things about DAP, so definitely check it out. also, the suggestion about the giant crate and pee pads was also a good one. i'm not sure about x-pens - can't basenjis just jump out of them?

as for the rude posts, just remember that some people on here have more experience with dog ownership than others, so try to only heed the advice of the more experienced dog owners (not me, by the way - i'm not experienced, just read a lot).

for the europeans that are against crating, i think it's just a really different cultural expectation. i think they are quite a bit more progressive than here when it comes to animal rights (not that i think crating is cruel, but they are more apt to find it appalling in europe than here). they don't allow ear cropping and tail docking, either (i wish we'd adopt the same).

and westcoastflea1, why are you now attacking rottweilers and pegging them as attack dogs?? working as closely with rescue as you do, i'm sure you know how many basenjis are re-homed/surrendered due to aggression and biting.

[pennypen]

Westcoast this is the fiance. you need to get a life, after megan told me how you treated her, I just had to spend 30 minutes of my life reading the dribble you had to contribute. The dog is obviously loved, cared for and it would be a travesty to take her out of a happy home. Just because you take in fosters does not give you a higher moral ground. you are probably a poor loser who it seems like even her own roomates want nothing to do with them. Get a life, be able to afford your own home, grow up and take a step off your high horse. In the future since it seems you have so much free time to dedicate just to your dogs, take an hour or two and work on some people skills. Lastly, to attack someone who is asking for help is down right sociopathic, and to denigrate them is complete opposite of what this forum is intended for. God Bless, get help not only for your own sake but probably for the dogs that you take care of. In the future, basic rule of thumb if its not positive, keep it to yourself

[pennypen]

@tlish:

for the europeans that are against crating, i think it's just a really different cultural expectation. i think they are quite a bit more progressive than here when it comes to animal rights (not that i think crating is cruel, but they are more apt to find it appalling in europe than here). they don't allow ear cropping and tail docking, either (i wish we'd adopt the same).

and westcoastflea1, why are you now attacking rottweilers and pegging them as attack dogs?? working as closely with rescue as you do, i'm sure you know how many basenjis are re-homed/surrendered due to aggression and biting.

Thank you. And i do agree about the tail docking … i think THAT is cruel but also i'm not going to tell some one they are wrong because that is the standard in the breed and the way its done.
I am definiatly going to look into DAP.

Also would also like to just throw this out there that Penny (since i got home at 5:30 ... i had off yesterday i do NOT work 6 days) has napped 75% of the time ... either laying on me or my fiance .... she woke up to play for 30 mins and then back to a nap lol literally this dog loves sleep more than me and i didn't think that was possible.:rolleyes:

And i too think it a little comical that west coast mad such a nasty comment about rotties which i have spent alot of time around and have got to be one of the sweetest breeds, just dont meess with their family

Anyways beside the 2 people who were negative, everyone else has been very helpful and I will continue to ask for advice since this is my first basenji and hope its not my last

[tlish]

ha! i was going to say the same thing about the weekends! suki sleeps all day whether i'm here or not. and at exactly 11:00 pm, she goes and whines at the bedroom door. she's in bed alone right now, and i'm out here on the computer!

[pennypen]

btw ii love the name suki … thought about naming Penny that but we are Philadelphian's livin in TX we Penny is not just the color of her coat but kind of stands for Pennsylvania lol

I actually just went on Amazon and read alot of reviews on DAT and decided to order it. Tototally worth the $22 even if it doesnt work because at least we know. Sounds amazing thought for the people it works for and if it works i will seriously hug that little diffuser lol

[Elscodobermann]

Wow. Westcoastflea and Debradownsouth really need to learn some manners. This is the problem with the written word, as opposed to talking face to face i can bet things would NOT have escalated in this way. This thread has been taken way of line, by them being simply abusive to each other (and to me) which isnt helping the OP at all, and if any moderators are about the thread should really be closed.

At no point did i say that the OP was a bad owner - she is on here looking for help and advice so she is obviously wanting to do whats best for her dog. - we wont all give the same advice though. I also think that the idea of rehoming thru BRAT is not right - im sure they are busy with real rescue cases - where as here the OP is an owner who just wants help to get thru these issues. As i said before i personally dont agree with crating for so long, so i gave that opinion, and some suggestions on ways that i thought would help, as they have helped for me and for people i know.

And yes, most people work all day, so if they want a dog they have to find ways to make dog ownership suit their lifestyle - or rather make their lifestyle suit dog ownership. Maybe there is a cultural difference, as i can guarantee that no-one in the uk would be happy selling a pup that was going to be crated all day while the owners are at work. If both owners work full time as most do, then there has to be something in place i.e a dog walker, a relative or such to see to the dog, or facilities like an outdoor space with a run for it to relieve itself. Thats just the way it is here so we have real difficulty understanding the general American point of view.

[nomrbddgs]

OMG, here we go again, getting away from the issue and making it personal. The OP asked for advice about helping with an issue. She is asking how to make it (the crate) a little more acceptable to her dog, which she actually loves very much.

To the OP, sounds like she has separation anxiety. Since you have stated that even when looked after by others, she sits by the door, or constantly looks for you, maybe you should try the DAP or a rescue remedy type of option. I myself have a girl that has separation anxiety, she has come to the point where I don't crate her in the house as she doesn't just whine and cry, she looses control of her bowels and will literally spin in her poop and throw it everywhere and make a huge mess. Then she gets herself into such a state where I think she could have a heart attack. So, I just don't crate her in the house. She's fine in the car or a hotel room, just not in the house.

I, personally, would start to work on leaving her alone for a few minutes at a time, outside the crate, when I went to do a short errand. Such as walk to the end of the drive, outside for a 1 minute break, etc. then increase the time. You might find that if you start small and extend the time, she will be less destructive.

For the europeans, I agree with less crate timing, but sometimes it's just not a reality here. While we do have some options in doggy daycare, sometimes the way things are set up at the daycare, (and they are not on every street corner here) it's more detrimental to the dog to take them there than to go it alone. I've seen some of the daycares here and I wouldn't even bring a mouse here the way some of them are run. Add to that is the cost. I believe some of them are way out of line on their prices. $100 bucks a week when your pay is only 3 to 5 times that amount is ridiculous. So other options must be found.

Add to this, some dogs love their crate. My other girl starts to run circles in front of her crate about 9pm and INSISTS on going in her crate then until the am. There are just some dogs that are this way. I hate putting her in there, as I would prefer to leave her out, but SHE wants to go in there. I have tried to leave her out and she just continues her pacing until the crate is opened.

So, take heart and try a few of the options mentioned here. It just might help with some of the anxiety.

[Ellusionz]

Is it possible to tire her out before you goto work? Or maybe put in a doggie dvd and some chew bones to distract her during the day? I'd also recommend some puppy pads around the cage to save any flooring you have I started trying to do the cage thing but a couple weeks after I got her my girl caught kennel cough. I had to separate her upstairs from the other dog with this 40" high gate (works great!) and have just been giving her the upstairs to roam when I leave. Less whining now, but my mom or friend is usually home and she probably knows that.

I was also checking out some pet things in my area and found this small company called pedalpaws. They're not taking new clients but they say for $10 they come out and bike with your dog for 20 minutes, letting your dog set the pace! Sounds neat to me, and a pretty good price if it tires the dog out LOL.

[gjrcvw]

Is it possible that she sleeps when you get home because she can finally relax?

Is she in a wire or plastic crate now and what size? Have you tried a larger size or if this one is already large, can you try a smaller size? Can you try a different location for the crate? Or, do you have a laundry room or entry way that has solid flooring and is dog proofable that you could use for this purpose?

I think you need to determine whether this is separation anxiety, crate anxiety, or neither. If her anxiety is actually very high, you need help from the vet in alleviating it. What do you think– does she have a true separation anxiety? Or is her behavior more the kind that just needs to get used to being alone / in the crate?

[gjrcvw]

I just went back and reread your descriptions of her behavior in and out of the crate when you are gone and this does sound like separation anxiety. Your vet can prescribe medication that will help her calm, but you need to use behavior modification as well.

This is a real problem and can be helped. It is not because you crate her all day. Here is an article about the disorder:
https://www.reconcile.com/_layouts/downloads/media/coverage/Reconcile-VTX-Spring07-Simpson.pdf

This one is a bit of an easier read:
http://www.cpvh.com/Articles/47.html

The major issue is that this is a veterinary and a behavioral issue. Treatment (medicine) is generally given for two months while behavior modification is implemented. The dogs are actively suffering from this– so if you can get to the vet, describe all of the behavior, the destruction of toys and of your floors, the peeing and pooping when left alone in the house, etc-- and determine whether she would do well with treatment.