Peeing in the crate

[westcoastflea1]

this isnt a question of crating or not crating

good dog owner or bad dog owner

or whether one, two or dozens of basenjis dont mind being in a crate all day

this is about a dog who has made it very clear that it doesnt want to be alone 8 hours a day, that it doesnt want to be in a crate for 8 hours a day and is actually peeing while in the crate when its perfectly capable of holding its urine when not in the crate

so why is this dog crated 8 hours a day 5 days a week?

because the owner has to work

the owner has been given suggestions on some things that might help her dog adjust to being alone or crated so much of the time but has turned down every one of them

the owner has made it clear that she is not able to change the situation for the dog so it seems clear that the dog will continue being left alone and crated 8 hours a day til it finally gives up and accepts it

have i missed anything here?

perhaps suggesting that the dog would be better off in a home where it was not isolated 8 hours a day in a crate is what will motivate this woman to do what she needs to do to meet her b's needs for less isolation and crate time

[pennypen]

@westcoastflea1:

this isnt a question of crating or not crating

the owner has made it clear that she is not able to change the situation for the dog so it seems clear that the dog will continue being left alone and crated 8 hours a day til it finally gives up and accepts it

have i missed anything here?

Um yes you moron I did state that i recently changed my work hours (whihc dont take effect until next week) so she has 2 less hours in the crate.

ALso i would like to know how when i come home and Penny sees me she is so HAPPY and wags her tail like crazy to see us. She may hate being in the crate but as soon as we are home she could care less because she has us back. I can honeslty say she is the happiest basenji i know and is not destructive in any way (except underware eating … whats up with that btw)
Shes unhappy when someone other than us is watching her and we are not there.

If i were to give her up that would mean i didnt care and to penny i would have abandonded her.

I think you are a COMPLETE idiot and i feel SO sorry for the poor dogs that have to spend any time what so ever with you.
Oh and i have gone through and read some of your own posts .... and I am the bad owner??? ... LMFAO!
Right now i have a happy pup laying next to me chewing a bone and blissfully happy. And later after dinner i will go on a 3 mile run around the park and tomorrow we will spend 4 hours at the dog park like we do all the time .... bad owner my effin ass.

Also if you had read some of my previous posts I have tried to leave her in a room she could not destroy and she pees and poos all over it when i am gone for 30 mins ..... so i am so sure i have not tried everything i can for her to make the time we are at work better for her.

[listeme]

If it helps, this isn't a "normal" thread tone around here. Hang in there!

P.S. I have had several underwear eaters. Rotten little beasts If anyone ever comes up with a magic solution for THAT, please let me know!

[westcoastflea1]

the woman who posted said her dog hated being crated
hated being alone

yet was being crated and left alone all day so was peeing to show her unhappiness

the woman was given ideas on how to help her dog
building an outside kennel
doggie day care
a dog walker
she rejected all of them
she is buying a house and planning a wedding so cant afford it

am i the only one who caught that?

so if the attitude is my dog is peeing and i know she is unhappy but i cant afford to do anything about it then yes
i think it might be a wake up call to say "maybe you need to rehome her with a family that can or is willing to work a little harder to meet her needs, rather then give her tips on how to make life easier for her when her dog spends everyday in a crate and pees to protest

do i seriously think she should rehome?

of course not
what a stupid idea
i cant believe anyone would take it seriously

but maybe throwing that idea out there is what it takes for her to seriously consider making some changes

if so then i guess all the nastiness this comment generated will have been worth it

[pennypen]

@listeme:

If it helps, this isn't a "normal" thread tone around here. Hang in there!

P.S. I have had several underwear eaters. Rotten little beasts If anyone ever comes up with a magic solution for THAT, please let me know!

Thanks i get that its only a couple bad eggs … i guess every club/forum can;t be perfect.

I know ... the underwear lol The closet must ALWAYS be closed. She has eaten some and then burried it back under some clothes lol She is currently still trying to figure out how to open a door knob .... she just cant grasp the knob (no thumbs and all) but she gets the michanics of it cause she tries to shimmy it... its unreal how smart these dogs can be.

[DebraDownSouth]

@westcoastflea1:

have i missed anything here?

perhaps suggesting that the dog would be better off in a home where it was not isolated 8 hours a day in a crate is what will motivate this woman to do what she needs to do to meet her b's needs for less isolation and crate time

@westcoastflea1:

she is buying a house and planning a wedding so cant afford it

am i the only one who caught that?
do i seriously think she should rehome?
**
of course not
what a stupid idea
i cant believe anyone would take it seriously**

but maybe throwing that idea out there is what it takes for her to seriously consider making some changes

if so then i guess all the nastiness this comment generated will have been worth it

Typing slow. The dog doesn't like it. What you MISSED is big whoop, you work on getting the dog to accept it.

As for your patting yourself on the back about you comments, the only thing your comment did was make you look like it made you look. I'll let you decide what that was. It didn't help the OP or anyone, it was just, as you admit "stupid." It wasn't helpful or inspiring. It was so stupid as to be distracting instead of helpful.

So she can't afford it… you who whined about your roomies and not doing what the rescue needed because of them. HMMMM you don't have the MONEY to have your OWN PLACE so you can do what is RIGHT for a dog, but are chastising her? So next time you consider fostering, or getting a dog, consider that YOU are not skilled, don't have the right set up, have roomies that might make proper training an issue, and go get a goldfish. Now, that is about as helpful as you were to her. Tell me, did it INSPIRE you? Motivate you? No? Well, neither was your snarking for her to place the dog. When YOU had issues, couldn't let the dog bother your roomies, did we say send back to BRAT for another foster because YOU wouldn't take suggestions? NO. People tried to work with YOU with YOUR limitations. Give the same courtesy. Just a thought.

I can't afford a day sitter either. Wanna come get my dogs on days I have to be gone? Yeah, over my dead body. And now I am done. You contribute nothing helpful but undeserved smugness.

[westcoastflea1]

well deb its nice to see you back in your usual form

youve been so nice lately i was getting worried, thought maybe youd been taken over by the pod people
glad to see thats not the case

[pennypen]

:)A lot of these posts were really upsetting but after hearing all the amazing positive things other people had to say, I know I am on the right track and doing the best i can and Penny knows that too.

[lvoss]

I have out training my own dogs today so have come in late on this discussion.

It really sounds like Penny has an issue with anxiety which is causing her to pee and poop when left alone. Since she also is not keen on the crate, crating her is only causing more anxiety. There is a lot that you will need to work on and it would be really good if you were able to consult with a behaviorist and if that isn't feasible sometimes just getting into a good positive reinforcement training class with a trainer you can talk to about at home issues can make a real difference. In the meantime, start building positive association with the crate or maybe even set up an ex-pen and use that instead. Feed her there and give her special rewards there so it becomes a place she has lots of positive experiences associated with before you have to start leaving her there which is what triggers the anxiety. Consider using a DAP diffuser in the room with her to see if it helps keep her calm and build up time if possible.

I have a dog with crate anxiety and even at 13 years old he isn't really over it but luckily for us he is not destructive and doesn't have separation anxiety just crate anxiety so he can be left alone in the house and not have problems.

[DebraDownSouth]

@westcoastflea1:

well deb its nice to see you back in your usual form

youve been so nice lately i was getting worried, thought maybe youd been taken over by the pod people
glad to see thats not the case

My dear, I am nice when warranted and respond in kind to posts like yours.

[pennypen]

@lvoss:

I have out training my own dogs today so have come in late on this discussion.

It really sounds like Penny has an issue with anxiety which is causing her to pee and poop when left alone. Since she also is not keen on the crate, crating her is only causing more anxiety. There is a lot that you will need to work on and it would be really good if you were able to consult with a behaviorist and if that isn't feasible sometimes just getting into a good positive reinforcement training class with a trainer you can talk to about at home issues can make a real difference. In the meantime, start building positive association with the crate or maybe even set up an ex-pen and use that instead. Feed her there and give her special rewards there so it becomes a place she has lots of positive experiences associated with before you have to start leaving her there which is what triggers the anxiety. Consider using a DAP diffuser in the room with her to see if it helps keep her calm and build up time if possible.

I have a dog with crate anxiety and even at 13 years old he isn't really over it but luckily for us he is not destructive and doesn't have separation anxiety just crate anxiety so he can be left alone in the house and not have problems.

Thank you … someone earlier had mentions DAP and i am going to look into that. I agree with you that its deffinitaly an anxiety issue with not just the crate but separation from us as well.

I did try the first 3 months to feed her in the crate and she would eat her food but would stretch if she had to to keep at least one toe out it seemed lol She use to take treats when i would put her in the crate but now she refuses to take anything once she is in the crate and have been this way since i'd say 8 months. It's like she is telling me "no i will not be bribbed to like this place".
Thank you again for all your input i do appreciate it a lot.

[lvoss]

What she is really saying is that her anxiety about the crate is so great that not even food is good enough to relieve that anxiety so she can't make the positive association you are trying to build. You will really need to change the picture for her and take it really slow to build positive associations with a place that she can be confined.

[listeme]

@lvoss:

What she is really saying is that her anxiety about the crate is so great that not even food is good enough to relieve that anxiety so she can't make the positive association you are trying to build. You will really need to change the picture for her and take it really slow to build positive associations with a place that she can be confined.

This is what we have learned with the things that Simon is afraid of – the not taking treats is actually a pretty sure bet that it is based in fear.

Anxiety and fear are not very different, so I think this is a really good clue.

[westcoastflea1]

if you think for even a micro second that letting someone know that may have been heavy handed (i will freely admit and actually apologize for), that sometimes you need to listen to what your dog is trying to tell you and do what is necessary to deal with the real problem not the symptom IN ANY WAY excuses the kind of inappropriate personal attack that you just engaged in you are dead wrong

i have done a lot of reading on this forum since i started fostering and have found that your replies are by far the rudest and most offensive of any member here

you seem to think that because you slid from your mothers womb a fully fledged professional dog trainer that that somehow gives you the right to be offensive, smug, conceited and just plain nasty to anyone you feel is not your equal in the dog world

and since you obviously feel that no one here IS your equal you are rude and nasty most of the time

how many times in past posts have you said "im so upset angry etc etc that i have to walk away from the computer"
might be fun to make a compilation of all the rude things you have said to people in the past, im sure take up at least 3 or 4 pages

I find the fact that you are always talking about your rotties to be very revealing

what is it they say about people resembling their dogs ?
it must be true since you are definitely in attack mode at least 75% of the time

the double standard by which you live is absolutely laughable

its alright for you to be offensive or say something that is not helpful the way that i did tonight

but god forbid somebody else should do so

cause good old debra is right there on the attack

DOWN GIRL DOWN !! enough already!

vent your anger elsewhere and learn how to differ with other peoples opinions appropriately

[pennypen]

@westcoastflea1:

I find the fact that you are always talking about your rotties to be very revealing

what is it they say about people resembling their dogs ?
it must be true since you are definitely in attack mode at least 75% of the time

the double standard by which you live is absolutely laughable

its alright for you to be offensive or say something that is not helpful the way that i did tonight

if you aren;t going to constructivly contrubute and insist on attacking people trying to give me advice than i would like to ask you to stop replying to this post.

[pennypen]

@listeme:

This is what we have learned with the things that Simon is afraid of – the not taking treats is actually a pretty sure bet that it is based in fear.

Anxiety and fear are not very different, so I think this is a really good clue.

Do you think she is actually afraid of the crate?! Thats is really troubling to me and makes me more determind to try and fix this problem or find a better solutions in the house ….

[lvoss]

As listme said, anxiety and fear really are not too different and anxiety can definately be fear based.

[westcoastflea1]

oh but pennypen although you absolutely personally attacked me as well i havent said anything to you about it
lets leave it that way shall we

[tlish]

wow! this post has been verrry interesting, to say the least.

to the OP, you are totally not alone, which i think you've seen here. my b also doesn't like her crate, not to the extent of yours, but still, she whines and grumbles a bit. you know what? i whine and grumble a bit about having to go work for 8 hours a day, too! it's life. and i'm grateful for my job because it pays for me to have comfortable free time. and i'm sure suki is grateful for my job, too, because it pays for her free time. don't beat yourself up. you are doing the right thing by seeking advice. i've recently read some good things about DAP, so definitely check it out. also, the suggestion about the giant crate and pee pads was also a good one. i'm not sure about x-pens - can't basenjis just jump out of them?

as for the rude posts, just remember that some people on here have more experience with dog ownership than others, so try to only heed the advice of the more experienced dog owners (not me, by the way - i'm not experienced, just read a lot).

for the europeans that are against crating, i think it's just a really different cultural expectation. i think they are quite a bit more progressive than here when it comes to animal rights (not that i think crating is cruel, but they are more apt to find it appalling in europe than here). they don't allow ear cropping and tail docking, either (i wish we'd adopt the same).

and westcoastflea1, why are you now attacking rottweilers and pegging them as attack dogs?? working as closely with rescue as you do, i'm sure you know how many basenjis are re-homed/surrendered due to aggression and biting.

[pennypen]

Westcoast this is the fiance. you need to get a life, after megan told me how you treated her, I just had to spend 30 minutes of my life reading the dribble you had to contribute. The dog is obviously loved, cared for and it would be a travesty to take her out of a happy home. Just because you take in fosters does not give you a higher moral ground. you are probably a poor loser who it seems like even her own roomates want nothing to do with them. Get a life, be able to afford your own home, grow up and take a step off your high horse. In the future since it seems you have so much free time to dedicate just to your dogs, take an hour or two and work on some people skills. Lastly, to attack someone who is asking for help is down right sociopathic, and to denigrate them is complete opposite of what this forum is intended for. God Bless, get help not only for your own sake but probably for the dogs that you take care of. In the future, basic rule of thumb if its not positive, keep it to yourself