about leaving the dog outside-
It seems like, perhaps due to the current economy, there have been a lot of dogs "missing" lately. I'd be afraid to leave a cute little dog like a basenji out side by himself.
Not an issue where I live.
I need help naming my new basenji pup!!
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No I was planning on naming her something like Dreamlite's Big Bucks, and then her name could be Cash. -this is just an example i havent chosen her name or call name yet. but Im thinking something like that. -Thanks
What did you end up naming her?
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We have finally decided what we are naming her!
Her name is Marli. –like Marley and me.
Her registered name is Prairieland's forbidden Secret!
Thank you everyone for all the help! I also got her today and she is everything I hoped for!
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OMG you people are so polite. I am inspired to try to type this as politely as possible. it will be very hard. But sometimes beating around the bush isn't the way to protect the breed.
Good breeders, responsible breeders, do not sell puppies without limited registration (ie must be spayed or neutered) unless they feel the puppy truly is show potential and the HOME knowledgeable and willing to do things right. Keeping co-ownership is common to make SURE it is done right before the concept of breeding ever is done.
A good breeder educates their potential puppy homes. It sounds like you called GOOD breeders who offered you pet quality puppies but you wanted one you could totally control. I understand the desire, but understand a GOOD breeder feels responsibility to their dogs, NOT YOU, in doing what is right.
I would never, in a million years, have sold you a puppy without co-owning or on limited and insisted on mentoring you along if you really wanted to get into showing. A GOOD breeder really would love to have you learn from them and help you. But they would have held onto controls to protect that puppy.
Please, back up. Forget breeding. Get books on pedigrees, genetics and find show mentors who can help you learn to show and understand what you are doing. It isn't likely your puppy is special enough to warrant breeding. But she can be a superb learning tool and fun while you learn the things you need to know so that the next puppy has all the potential. I say that without looking at the pedigree because frankly, when experts here know dogs 3 or 4 generations back, it reveals as much as anyone needs to know. Well that and the ad for these puppies.
My dogs both have NOTHING but champions in every single generation for 5 generations. Guess what, got championship on Sayblee, spayed her. Spayed the other. Why? Because even with great looking pedigrees (and your pups doesn't come close), not all dogs should be bred. Improving the breed means taking a hard look at what really is improving. It also means setting aside your own wants for the benefit of the dog and breed. Did you know that not spaying this puppy before her first heat increases her chances of cancer? Do you know how much it costs to do it RIGHT, from titling, testing, finding the RIGHT stud with titles and tests?
There are many fine good breeders here. I know Rottweilers, rottie lines, rottie genetics. I can look at a pedigree going back 40 yrs and tell you issues. I can't do that at all with Basenji. So I leave the breeding to those folks… even though I am very very very knowledgeable about canine genetics and disorders in general.
I know you dismiss people who say don't breed. So I am sure this post will be dismissed. But I hope not. I hope you start reading to LEARN, open yourself up to being totally responsible about the breed, and if you are set on breeding, that you start putting away the major funds you will need to buy a quality bitch and do it right. And just have fun and learn on this puppy, or spay her and start taking handling classes, hanging out at shows, find a mentor and really learn. And btw, I took 2 1/2 yrs to buy my first Rottie. And I still made mistakes, big ones. But now, with the internet, there is no excuse for not learning and understanding what puppymills, backyard breeding and irresponsible breeding is and choosing to NOT be part of those folks.
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ok. Im going to be as nice as i can.
I appreciate you taking time to write that, however you dont know me. I dont PLAN on breeding her unless I can get a title. If i find a stud that matches her genetics. I HAVE read up on things, I HAVE gone to shows. I HAVE talked to breeders and had long conversations with them. I HAVE done all the things you said. I am also rescueing dogs here in South Dakota. www.foreverfriendsrescue.webs.com
I know all about the pros and cons of spaying and neutering. I always encourage people to spay and neuter. And Yes, that is great that you have 5 champions. Actually, you may not have read my page, but It says specifically in there that I want to someday do that, get 5 generations of champion lines. Im not saying im doing any of it soon and im not trying to be rude but before you go and start saying things maybe you should just confront me in person. My site is attached, my email is on there. You dont have to go around posting things when you have NO IDEA who i am or what I am doing.
People are "polite" on here because we all talk and we all care about the breed, hence why its a Basenji forum. I also ask that if people want to be rude, not to do it on my posted forums. I truely and genuinely care about basenjis, I have 2. one is a 10 yr old spayed female, the other is the 8 month old. They both sleep under my covers at night and they have free run of the house. I understand that ALOT of breeders do co-ownerships or limited. but if you didnt know, SOME will allow it without it if you have talked to them for a long time, they know you and you know them. This is the only year she allowed the full registration and next years puppies will only be limited. Me and Valeri know each other and are friends. We talked and we had an understanding that I would adopt a puppy that was not on limited and was all mine, one who i can breed–IF I CHOOSE TO--or spay--IF I CHOOSE TO. It was an individual basis only here. I go to her with my breeding/show/basenji questions and I also go to Teresa of Hestekin Hills. I talk to alot of breeders actually, and I dont like people saying things that--in my opinion-- seem like your insisting ill be a puppy mill or a backyard breeder. I AM NOT NOR WILL I EVER BE ONE. I care about this breed and I will not put them through that type of situation. I have an adoption contract stating that they are to be returned to me anytime in their lifetime or any reason. I will always take a puppy back. I have many things in there. --My application was copied and revised, with prior approval, from Teresa Hestekin.
Now I dont want us to be on the wrong foot as I do not know you, and you do not know me. If youd like to continue talking about this in email, feel free to email me at barklessdogs@hotmail.com
Please, if you are going to say things like that about me, do it to my face and not on a public forum. To me, that is just rude and inconsiderate.
have a nice day
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Is your dog Missy, her offspring and the sire listed in the Basenji Pedigree Database? If not, please e-mail Sally Wallis and give her the information. I attended a dog auction in SD several years ago and am wondering if the Bs that were for sale there are related to any of your Bs. They were APRI registered. They were owned by a woman in SD who was a USDA licensed dealer/breeder but at least two of the female Bs were originally from a breeder in western MN, Daniel Kuehne, another USDA licensed breeder who in July 2008 had 200 puppies and 349 adult dogs. I believe Missy is a half sister to my Bambi, a rescue from the dog auction, via the sire whose kennel name was Kalahari.
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First, I said nothing that was inappropriate for the forum. Not one single thing was not on target about what should be done. It contained no attacks on you. Simply good solid RESPONSIBLE advice.
Second, nah not going there.But I do suggest that your comment that you want to GET 5 generations is perplexing. IMNSHO, you START with a dog with at LEAST 75 (hopefully more) percent of EACH of 5 generations titled to start with.
And: I dont PLAN on breeding her unless I can get a title. If i find a stud that matches her genetics. I HAVE read up on things,
A title isn't ENOUGH. A stud that matches her pedigree would be what… almost any mediocre pet? Matching a pedigree means you have enough information from health testing titling, and health testing of OFFSPRING, to really know what they produce. You don't have that for this dog. And the comment about her letting this year's go unlimited but next year not has my head spinning. It is obvious that you have not read much of value. A responsible breeder decides on the quality of the pups and pedigree, not a year, when and which pups to let go to potential show/breeding homes. Period.Done now. I recognize when a topic is dead.
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The problem I have in seeing you as a responsible breeder is that you are already advertising a possible litter for 2011 when your bitch will not even be old enough to have an adult hip rating from OFA. The Canine Health Information Center requires OFA Hip rating, CERF exam, OFA Thyroid testing, and Fanconi Marker Test for a CHIC certificate for basenjis. This information is most helpful when it is part of a big picture of testing including results for parents, grand parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, etc and CERF and Thyroid testing repeated as recommended to catch changes. Without the big picture you will only have the snapshot of your dog at that one moment and not have much to work with to predict future issues.
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The problem I have in seeing you as a responsible breeder is that you are already advertising a possible litter for 2011 when your bitch will not even be old enough to have an adult hip rating from OFA. The Canine Health Information Center requires OFA Hip rating, CERF exam, OFA Thyroid testing, and Fanconi Marker Test for a CHIC certificate for basenjis. This information is most helpful when it is part of a big picture of testing including results for parents, grand parents, siblings, aunts, uncles, etc and CERF and Thyroid testing repeated as recommended to catch changes. Without the big picture you will only have the snapshot of your dog at that one moment and not have much to work with to predict future issues.
yikes, thats like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children.
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yikes, thats like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children.
You mean telling people about the required health testing and need to have health information on relatives is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children? Or do you mean breeding a animal under the age of 2 is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children?
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Erm, I didn't understand that last comment above…when did teenagers enter?? Anyway,
I must agree with Lisa though, since it appears the only viable bitch you have to breed is 8 months old - untested and not yet appraised by a proper judge - it surprises me to see you would be expecting a litter in 2011. Furthermore the only names you have listed as references (ie Hestekin Hills' Teresa Hestekin) has a reputation of being a poor breeder and confirmed backyard breeder. There have been multiple email alerts (not just on Basenji Forums) concerning her breeding practises. Reading through her site her claims are rather ludicrous when she confronts over pet population and the role of the SPCA. Finally the cost of a puppy is positively extortionate - 1200 for 6 month old unshown Bitch? And her kennel on Puppyfind has Akita pups for $2000. I'm not saying she is you, I'm saying this might not be the person you want as a counsellor.
Remember all good Breeders start the same, with a passion. A passion for the dogs they love; I think it's evident that you appreciate Basenjis. That passion however is not enough without knowledge, a deep knowledge of the long history this breed professes to (ie knowing your bloodlines, kennel names, origins and life histories of the first Basenjis brought back from Africa) Good breeders will have a excellent mind for the genetics of their dogs, because they will have given the time and energy to academic study and reflection in order to make a match that will produce the soundest puppies possible. A reputable breeder will welcome constructive criticism with a fervent eagerness, because it's not about us (or about a profit), it’s about the dogs. I think from reading over your website quite thoroughly that you genuinely want to work with Basenjis. That’s brilliant. So ask yourself, when was the last time I took a course in Biology? When was the last time I was attending competitive shows and chasing down BCOA members to counsel me? Could I myself evaluate a puppy for show quality? How many years have I devoted to knowing this breed inside and out as much as I can, down through the pedigrees? What are the differences in body type between an English bloodline dog and a Finnish pedigreed dog today? Am I in good standing with a recognised dog club, so my peers can support and guide me? What are the faults in my dogs? How would I genetically improve that and what are the statistical odds of that happening? Do I have the monetary resources to invest in my breeding adventure? A recent tally of a reputable breeding put the cost of $4,000+ to the breeder, I think she might have had 4 puppies but it could have been 3. All of them sold for less than $900. Do I have the money and the knowhow if something goes terribly wrong with my bitch’s pregnancy? These are good questions (certainly not a comprehensive list) and they should be concretely answered before having a litter. So understand that every breeder starts where you are, with a life of love for dogs and a desire to serve the breed. I believe that if you reach out and ask for help it will be given to you. There are MULTIPLE trustworthy breeders on the forum, use them! I think a courageous thing to do as well is to have your bitch evaluated by the most trained eyes you can find – and listen to what those people say. Use your enthusiasm to be the very best you can be, and that is a lifetime worth of work, but a life worth living when your ambitions are recognised.
As a small side note, you mentioned you watch Cesar Millan. I don’t know if you watch or practice but in my opinion it would behove you to read the recent article that was posted on the Forum about his methods and follow that up with the reading Lisa supplied. Basenjis respond very very poorly to these kinds of training methods.
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You mean telling people about the required health testing and need to have health information on relatives is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children? Or do you mean breeding a animal under the age of 2 is like encouraging a teenage girl to start having children?
i meant breeding a dog under the age of two. sorry i thought i was clear but thats what I get for posting so late!
And it was a comparison of the maturity both physically and mentally, from what I understand breeding a dog under the age of 1 is like breeding a 12 year old and breeding a dog under 2 is like breeding a teenager. I believe i read that in a stanley coren book.
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ok the topic is dead. Ill just end with that also. Im not going to fight you because i do not wish to. Thank you for the advice ill take it to heart. I appologize if you do not like me, tho we do not know each other. And I do not know you, but how did you get started? because someone had to have given you a break in order for you to start breeding, didnt they? –im honestly asking, not in a sarcastic rude way.
Ivoss. Ihavent have internet for a while, I have to go to the library and I had a friend offer to update my site for me because she likes doings things like that, I let her, and she misunderstood what I told her. I will not be having a litter in 2011. I said POSSIBLY in 2012 IF Marli is all tested and the tests are admirable to breed then I MIGHT breed her however it is not planned and I appologize, that doesnt look good and i agree....I agree she will not be old enough to breed because they have to be at least 2 for the tests to be mostly accurate and she will not be. I want all the testing to be done before that. Please do not hold it against me. I will be editing my own site from now on so things do not get confused.
Honestly, I feel attacked and, tho i know it is not meant it, I do. I love this breed, I LOVE dogs. I have saved over 300 dogs since 2008 when i founded my rescue, I have been around dogs my whole life, my father taught me how to train them, groom them, and both of my parents taught me to be a caring individual for all animals, including dogs. I am the MOST animal loving human being on the earth. I stop and help turtles that are on the side of the road, I once saved a little bird whos feet were stuck on the highway because it landed in wet asphalt. If i see a stray dog, I find a home for it, or i look hard to find the owner. Ill try to catch him/her so that it doesnt get hit by a car. If im busy or in a rush i STILL do it because i genuinely care about dogs...Some people that know me think I care more about dogs than anything else in the world...even people...SOME cases i do agree with them. ...but honeslty I dont know how to show everyone...and because no one knows me it doesnt really matter, that I truely want to better the breed...and also that I am not in this for money. Money is the last thing on my mind if i were to breed. If you met me, im sure you would agree. And I know just being an animal lover is not a reason to breed and I agree, its not. and Im NOT saying she will be the dog I breed and im not saying I wont get another puppy that is in good lines. Im saying that if i do breed her--IM NOT SAYING I WILL--she would be the potential mother of the puppies. I AM looking into finding a champion lined breeder and im saving up. I want to enter her in shows because it would be a fun thing to do. I may never breed her, I DONT KNOW. But its always fun to have practice and experience. I have already spoken to my vet about the testing and once he gets the tests in (like fanconi and other need-to-get-tests) ill be having her tested for everything.
I appologize If I have offended anyone. I also apologize even though I feel I have nothing to apoligize for. But I do because I am a kind hearted, easy going person and I do not like fights. I appreciate everyone who has helped and put their two sense in, and I appreciate everyone who was kind and polite about it.
Thank you for the input and if anyone would like to talk about thi, or basenjis, Id love to chat. Its always nice to hear from basenji lovers and hear the stories of their dogs.
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I don't think Debra was attacking you. I think she felt that it was not strongly pointed out that your philosophy for building a responsible breeding program had several major flaws.
What I saw Debra doing was trying to point out the need for a sound foundation and that even doing everything we can to get that we sometimes find at maturity that it doesn't work out.
To build a strong foundation it is not good enough to buy a female and just do the testing and competing with her and call it good. At this time, only 2 hereditary diseases in the breed had a DNA test and one is only a marker test so it still behooves us to gather multi-generational data. For those diseases with no DNA test the only way to figure the odds of producing the disease is to have both depth and breadth of pedigree tested. If you go to OFA and pull up the health pedigree for your dog how many "holes" are there for Hips, Eyes, and Thyroid? This is something that should be considered when you first contact breeders.
Titled dogs in a pedigree is not a guaruntee of quality but it does say something about the commitment of the owners/breeders of the dogs. To title in the various venues out there it takes a commitment of both time and money. It also shows the person has pride in their animal and is willing to put them out there in front of judges, breeders, and exhibitors to see. When most of the pedigrees is untitled dogs, that leaves the question, who besides the breeder ever saw and evaluated these animals?
As for co-ownership, this is not something that shoud be a horrible burden that a person seeks to avoid. This should be something a beginner seeks out because they are looking to build lasting relationships in the basenji community and want mentorship in the breed. Breeders ask for co-ownerships with novice owners because they have invested years of their time and heart into their breeding programs and they care about what happens to each puppy. They want novices to be successful and want to help them achieve that success.
Right now, your puppy is 8 months old. Thoughts of breeding whether it is in 2011 or 2012 should be the furthest things from your mind right now. You should be enjoying puppy classes, starting showing training and entering matches and fun events. These first couple of years is all about learning what your dog has to offer the breed.
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I did a posting earlier inquiring about the pedigree for your Missy and her offspring. Are they in the Basenji Pedigree Database? I was interested in knowing if they are related to the girl I have at home.
I highly suggest getting eye exams done on your Bs based on the Sweeters line and also if your Bs are related to my girl.
Thanks!
Jennifer Hill
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Cesar Millan is going to get someone killed.
http://www.vet.ohio-state.edu/2726.htm
Quotes From Experts
World-renowned dog trainers, behaviorists and veterinarians had all warned National Geographic that Millan's methods had the potential for disaster. Below are quotes from noted experts:
- "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."
o Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior
o Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine - "Practices such as physically confronting aggressive dogs and using of choke collars for fearful dogs are outrageous by even the most diluted dog training standards. A profession that has been making steady gains in its professionalism, technical sophistication and humane standards has been greatly set back. I have long been deeply troubled by the popularity of Mr. Millan as so many will emulate him. To co-opt a word like 'whispering' for arcane, violent and technically unsound practice is unconscionable."
o Jean Donaldson, The San Francisco SPCA-Director of The Academy for Dog Trainers - "A number of qualified professionals have voiced concern for the welfare of pet dogs that experience the strong corrections administered by Mr. Millan. My concerns are based on his inappropriateness, inaccurate statements, and complete fabrications of explanations for dog behavior. His ideas, especially those about "dominance", are completely disconnected from the sciences of ethology and animal learning, which are our best hope for understanding and training our dogs and meeting their behavioral needs. Many of the techniques he encourages the public to try are dangerous, and not good for dogs or our relationships with them ."
o Dr. Suzanne Hetts, Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist
o Co-owner of Animal Behavior Associates, Inc., Littleton, CO - "Cesar Millan employs outdated methods that are dangerous and inhumane. Using a choke chain and treadmill to treat fear of strangers and dogs is completely inappropriate. Hopefully the National Geographic Channel will listen to the scientific community and discontinue production of The Dog Whisperer."
o Vyolet Michaels, CTC (Certified Dog Trainer and Behavior Counselor)
o Owner of Urban Dawgs, LLC of Red Bank, NJ - "On his TV show, the main method Millan uses for aggression is aversives (leash jerks, kicks, snaps of the hand against the neck, and restraint, among others) applied non contingently. The aversives are non contingent because they are so frequent that they're not connected to any particular behavior on the part of the dog—the dog gets popped pretty much constantly. This results in a state called learned helplessness, which means the animal hunkers down and tries to do as little as possible. This is what Millan calls "calm submission." It's exactly the same thing you see in a rat in a Skinner box that is subjected to intermittent shocks it can do nothing to avoid. This can happen quite fast, by the way, shall we say in ten minutes? The dangers to the dog are obvious, ranging from chronic stress to exacerbating the aggression, i.e., some dogs fight back when attacked. This latter is the simplest reason that aversives are a bad idea in treating aggression. Even used technically correctly as positive punishment for specific behaviors like growling and snarling, aversives do nothing to change the underlying fear or hostility, so the best you can hope for, in the words of famed vet and behaviorist, Ian Dunbar, is "removing the ticker from the time bomb." Thus such methods substantially increase the risk to humans of getting bitten."
o Janis Bradley, Instructor at The San Franciso SPCA Academy for Dog Trainers
o Author of the book, "Dogs Bite" - Excerpt of letter from Lisa Laney, Dip. DTBC, CPDT, CBC to National Geographic before airing "The Dog Whisperer":
o "The intended program depicts aversive and abusive training methods - treatment for some serious anxiety and fear based issues - being administered by an individual with no formal education whatsoever in canine behavioral sciences. The "results" that are shown are more than likely not long lasting changes, but the result of learned helplessness, or fatigue, neither of which impact behavior to any significant long term degree - at least not in a good way. For those of us who are pioneering the effort to end the ignorance that drives the cruel treatment administered upon our canine companions, it is disappointing to see that this programming will reach the masses - especially on the NG Channel. The ignorance that this program perpetuates will give equally ignorant people the green light to subject their dogs to abuse. In turn these dogs will react even more defensively, will bite more people - and end up dead." - "I have serious concerns because his methods are often intimidating rather than motivating. On TV, the dogs do comply but often they're being forced to - you can tell by their body language: tail down, mouth closed, ears back, eyes dilated… I argue that motivating leadership is far more effective than leading through intimidation."
o Steve Dale is the author of the twice weekly syndicated newspaper column "My Pet World" (Tribune Media Services).
o He's also the host of syndicated radio programs Steve Dale's Pet World, The Pet Minute with Steve Dale; and Pet Central, at WGN Radio, Chicago.
o Steve is a contributing editor at USA Weekend, special correspondent/columnist Dog World and editor-in-chief of PawPrints (a newsletter for veterinarians).
o His books include "American Zoos" and "DogGone Chicago."
o Steve has appeared on The Oprah Winfrey Show; National Geographic Explorer; Pets Part of the Family on PBS; several Animal Planet Shows; Fox News Channel, and Balance TV (Canada). He was a regular on WGN-TV Chicago.
o Touted as reaching more pet owners than any other pet journalist, Steve is a frequent guest expert on radio shows all over America and Canada; he has been quoted in dozens of newspaper and magazine stories, including the Los Angeles Times, USA Today, and Redbook.
o He is certified as a Behavior Consultant by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, and the recipient of many awards including the prestigious AVMA Humane Award.
- "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."
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I did a posting earlier inquiring about the pedigree for your Missy and her offspring. Are they in the Basenji Pedigree Database? I was interested in knowing if they are related to the girl I have at home.
I highly suggest getting eye exams done on your Bs based on the Sweeters line and also if your Bs are related to my girl.
Thanks!
Jennifer Hill
Thank you for the update. Ill have to get her eyes checked.
Missy is not in the data base because she is not AKC registered. and i didnt think they could be in there if they are not. but now that i have been told that i think they can be, im going to contact Sally and see if she cant put her in there for me.
Just so she is in there. Tell me more about your girl. Where did you get her? How old is she now? What is her birthdate? What is the "sweeters" line? -
Really, are you thinking of breeding this girl? She isn't even AKC reg. Please…rethink this.
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Really, are you thinking of breeding this girl? She isn't even AKC reg. Please…rethink this.
OH NO NO NO NO! she is spayed and 10 years old! I wouldnt if i could. She is just a family pet of mine. I thought we were just talking about putting more Basenjis into the database. I didnt realize we were talking about breeding and all. No she will not be bred(nor can she be) and she is my lovable little baby that sleeps in my bed under the covers every night. She is my life and i love her soooo much!
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Then I am very sorry. I though she was the young b girl you were thinking of breeding.
I am so sorry. -
Oh no trouble at all. Its ok
No i wouldnt breed a basenji unless it is AKC. I would also need the health tests and everything else be done before that would happen too. but no, Missy is just simply my house pet. I understand your concern tho, i would have said the same thing. Thank you though.
