Leash training

[dmey]

Does anyone have any advice on how to better leash train. Ayo and I have been walking twice a day everyday for months and he still pulls, Ive tried the stopping tecnique and only moving forward when he stops pulling and also turning around and walking in the opposite direction but , he l well for a while, but I still havent been able to have a continuous walk without him pilling me oof to the side or stopping and jerking. It gets to where my arm hurts after walking… I know I am doing something wrong but I dont know what...

[lvoss]

Do you use any other rewards besides just forward movement to ley Ayo know when he is correct?

When I start mine on loose lead walking, I use a long line and click treat for loose leash and feed the reward right behind my foot. When I start on the 6 foot leash, I am looking for loose leash and behind me to earn a click treat. Once they have a good reinforcement history for being next to me on a loose leash, I start to use penalty yards when walking, walking backwards until the dog reconnects with me, not just loosens up on the leash, before moving forward. You can also do "looking for a better dog" where you stop moving forward, turn your back on your dog and act very interested in the area behind you, like you are searching for something you lost. When your dog appears there to help you search, you have found your "better" dog so reward it and then continue on your walk. It can take a while the first time but they should start to improve especially if you are doing relationship building tihngs with your dog.

[agilebasenji]

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/LLW/

of course keep in mind that your dog already has a reinforcement history of getting "rewarded" by pulling. because of that, training loose lead walking may take a while, be patient. it is possible, even for basenjis

[dmey]

Thanks, I do reward with treats and praise whenever we are walking along correctly, when I call attention and he looks up at me, basically whenever he does what I want. And he does well until he doesnt want to anymore… and then he starts pulling. And I satrt stopping, and going in the opposite direction and he doesnt give in, he is relentless and after a awhile I feel like I am crazy, stopping and going and turning and stopping and going and its a little frustrating because I feel that I have been trying for months...

[lvoss]

Try not turning around, just walk backwards and wait for him to make eye contact with you before moving forward again. IME, this works better than turning around to go a new direction because dogs go where our feet are pointed so if my dog pulling and I turn in a new direction they tend to just rush in that direction and end up pulling in the other direction.

Also, the stopping and removing attention works better for me than just stopping does. They want to come find me because they are heavily rewarded for checking in. How often is Ayo making eye contact with you without you prompting him to? When I say "L'Ox", he turns and heads toward me usually at a run because he knows he going to get something yummy and then often will stay near me and without my saying anything he will look up at me to make eye contact, I click and treat that.

I do other things to build my value to my dogs so that they want to seek connection with me so that the above methods are more successful. I hand feed often especially with puppies. I do training sessions and practice things lik Attention, Zen (http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Levels/ByLevel/1Level.html) and Its Yer Choice (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc)

[dmey]

Thanks a lot, I will try on our next walk this afternoon. Thaks a lot for the websites. I will try to start over , going through all the steps. thanks a lot

[skookum9]

Hello to all. I'm new here although I have seen this sight before. I am thinking of breeding my little girl and thought that joining this site might give me some more insight into all that I will need for this.

In viewing this thread I was wondering if anyone here uses or recommends the use of a pinch collar. I had never used one before owning my little Molly but have found it such a useful tool that I cannot imagine raising a basenji without using one from time to time. I found it to be much more effective than a choke chain, and therefore much more puppy friendly. There is a trainer who recommended the use of them and I am glad for his suggestion. Now that she has some understanding and respect, I no longer use the pinch collar since it is no longer necessary. But I found it to be a tool which increased both my enjoyment of a wonderful companion and her enjoyment of more freedom for a more obedient little girl. Molly loved to tug at her leash but once I went to the pinch collar I was able to stop most of her pulling and now she is a joy to walk. I also use a lead that was promoted by a trainer by the name of Dan Marr and it has also been a very useful tool for teaching her leash obedience, but it works more like a cinch around her belly.

Would love to hear what others have found with these kinds of tools.

[agilebasenji]

Are you asking about using a pinch collar on a basenji puppy? I have never used a pinch collar on any dog in my house. I have used head halters on the lab and malinois#2, but I've always just used soft nylon martingales on the basenjis. (And the show chains when we're doing conformation.) My toolbox is pretty basic. I use a marker/clicker, treats and some creativity.

[lvoss]

@agilebasenji:

Are you asking about using a pinch collar on a basenji puppy? I have never used a pinch collar on any dog in my house. I have used head halters on the lab and malinois#2, but I've always just used soft nylon martingales on the basenjis. (And the show chains when we're doing conformation.) My toolbox is pretty basic. I use a marker/clicker, treats and some creativity.

I agree. I have used head halters but my basenjis found them aversive. Now, if needed recommend a Sensation or Easy Walk harness. For the ones living here, clicker, treats, training time, and patience work wonders. For some of my puppy buyers, the Easy Walk really helped them to then work on the training without allowing their dogs to practice the bad behavior.

[skookum9]

Yes, the pinch collars, but not so much a puppy as a young dog. My girl is 2 1/2 now and I no longer find much need to use the pinch collar but it sure was a great tool in her training. I had never used one before either so I tried it out on my own arm before I would try it on my dog. It didn't hurt me at all so I gave it a go on Molly and was well pleased. I am asking because I don't see anyone commenting about using any control tools like this, only the use of clickers and treats. I'm not that smitten with the idea of a treat in exchange for good behavior and would rather reward my dog with praise and attention. This is only speaking for myself as I know that many have had great results by use of treats. Learning to train horses has taught me volumes about training dogs and the pinch collars work a lot like the "pressure and release" system with horses.

I thank you for your reply because that is what I'm looking for, the way others make things work. When I first got my basenji I knew I needed a better way to work with her than my parents had for their basenji. I found it to be most difficult to find a training method recommended for basenji's and became more than a little frustrated by that. I think that basenji's make absolutely wonderful companions for anyone who is willing to spend the time to build that special relationship with their dog, if they have the right "tools" to train them. I found some things that really worked for me but I know that there will always be room for improvement and look forward to learning what others have had success with.

[lvoss]

Postive Reinforcement training which often uses clickers (secondary reinforcers) and treats(primary reinforcers) because they are easy to use is based on scientifically backed learning theory. There are other reinforcers that can and often are used but treats are often easiest when beginning a behavior. It does not mean that you always need to use treats or have treats on you for the dog to perform the behavior.

[agilebasenji]

skookum9,
Before you write off the whole clicker/treats thing, read Reaching the Animal Mind by Karen Pryor. My local library had a copy so you may not even have to buy it.

Personally, I haven't really found basenjis hard to train. They can be difficult to motivate and are sensitive to their environment, but mine love their training sessions. My training tends to focus on agility which is more involved than most pet-owners do. I don't do a lot of obedience training, but my dogs know the basics.

[skookum9]

With any dog that I have ever worked with, a simple rule is to be smarter than the dog when training. I think it's just that basenji's are that much smarter than other dogs that I have worked with. And the fact that they are much more independant in their thinking than other common breeds. It may not be harder for you to train them but I do think they take more patience and understanding than most other breeds. It is very easy to make a mistake with them and you must be willing to learn their needs.

It's not that I have written off the use of clicker training. I would love to learn a better understanding of it. I happen to like the success of the method I have used and am of the old school thinking that if it's not broke then don't fix it. The whole reward with treats idea has never worked for me, probably mostly because it goes against some of my core beliefs. But that doesn't mean I don't think it won't work. I don't believe it is the best way for me at this time. Largely because I am unskilled in it and don't have enough confidence in it.

I do not know how to apply clicker training effectively for walking on lead. But I do know first hand how well a pinch collar works for teaching a basenji to not pull on its leash. Before using one I thought perhaps I would need better understanding on how to use it but after trying it out on myself first, I learned that it took less skill that a choke chain and was much more effective. Before basenji's, I would say that a choke chain and about 15 minutes is all it would take for me to have a dog that would heel well. With my basenji I was constantly having to correct her with the choke chain and she just wouldn't "fall in". After moving to the pinch collar it only took the occassional correction and she got the idea and quickly found pleasure in her obedience. I look forward to applying the cinch lead that I now have the next time I need to train a basenji. It seems to work even better than the pinch collar but it's really hard to tell because she is already so well behaved from before.

As I said in my first post, I am here because I want to learn more. And that means that I am open to all ways that others are suggesting that works for them. I will enjoy hearing about all of the skills and techniques that others have that are willing to share them with me. Perhaps even a thick-headed old guy like myself can still learn a few new tricks, with the help of kind people from here.

[lvoss]

I disagree about the use of pinch collars. I see many people using them that are using them incorrectly and in ways that are down right harmful to the dog. If you ever gave a leash correction with the pinch collar then you are using it incorrectly and can cause harm to the dog.

With clicker training the worst that is likely to happen from incorrect use is a fat dog which is a reversible condition.

[skookum9]

I'm afraid that I do not understand your comment on the use of a pinch collar for leash correction being bad. Please explain so I can better understand what you are saying. The pinch collar is designed to work as a leash correction tool, perhaps I missunderstand what you mean. Having first tested the collar out on my own forearm, I know that a reasonable snap with the pinch collar will in no way harm my dog, so the idea that it can be harmful is confusing to me. And while a fat dog is something that can be corrected, bad behaviors take time and the damage done to the health by obesity can be permanant and even terminal.

I have seen some wonderful things done by clicker training and I have seen some less than wonderful things done with it. I'm certainly not against clicker training but I assume that the results of it have a lot to do with your understanding of how to make it work for you. I don't mean to appear simple or ignorant but truthfully, I guess I really am. I appreciate the input here and look forward to hearing and learning more. I hope to better understand what you meant by correct and incorrect use of a pinch collar.

[doodle]

@dmey:

Does anyone have any advice on how to better leash train. Ayo and I have been walking twice a day everyday for months and he still pulls, Ive tried the stopping tecnique and only moving forward when he stops pulling and also turning around and walking in the opposite direction but , he l well for a while, but I still havent been able to have a continuous walk without him pilling me oof to the side or stopping and jerking. It gets to where my arm hurts after walking… I know I am doing something wrong but I dont know what...

Hope you find something which works for you. I have had trouble teaching my bitch to walk properly on the lead. She is 18 months old and is very inquisitive and excitable. Unfortunately she is not interested in treats at all when we are outside and I have absolutely no chance if she sees another dog as she always wants to say hello. Please let me know if you find something which works for you. In my case I haven't tried a slip lead or pich collar. She gets so caught up in the moment, I think she would just hurt herself.

[agilebasenji]

Skookum9
Here's a video of Zest's first agility trial. This was almost a year ago and this weekend (after a several months break) she got her first Open (second level) qualifying run. Yes, in this first trial she's a bit distracted by people in the ring, but she stays with me and does the course. People in the ring are a bit odd for her since she's trained not in class but in my backyard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBilEocPpfM

her third trial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UosSPDLhAws&feature=channel

(this shows what she's really capable of!!)

and the Thanksgiving run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7bOOepwdhY&feature=related
you'll see she was much faster off the start line than I was expecting!

I don't know how to get these sorts of behavoirs using a leash and collar. But with a clicker I can let her know that she's doing what I want even if she's at a distance. Interesting discussion.

[lvoss]

@skookum9:

I'm afraid that I do not understand your comment on the use of a pinch collar for leash correction being bad. Please explain so I can better understand what you are saying. The pinch collar is designed to work as a leash correction tool, perhaps I missunderstand what you mean.

The pinch collar is not meant to used to give a "pop" like people do with choke chains. It can cause trachea damage as can choke chains and humans wrists are not nearly as sensitive and delicate as a trachea. A trachea is made of cartiledge not bone. There is a difference in how the correction is supposed to be delivered and for loose leash walking the dog gives itself the correction every time it tightens the leash.

In addition to physical harm, pinch collars are not recommended by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior because of the high risk of adverse effects.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/punishment%20guidelines-aversives%20effects-definitions.pdf

@skookum9:

And while a fat dog is something that can be corrected, bad behaviors take time and the damage done to the health by obesity can be permanant and even terminal.

I made the fat statement kind of jokingly. I adjust my dog's food to take into account what they are given during training and that is exactly what anyone should do. You don't even have to use "treats" my dogs earn a good portion of their daily meals working for them.

As for bad behaviors, no matter what training methods you use a part of that is managing situations so that your dog is not practicing bad behaviors while you teach the dog appropriate behaviors. That is why I recommend a Sensation harness to many people so they can walk their dog without it practicing pulling while they are also working on training loose leash walking.

[skookum9]

I guess I sort of look at the whole punishment question the same way I look at those who question the value of spanking their children. If punishment is issued in anger or without thought, then it is likely that there will be harm, either physical or mental. But if a clear and calm head is used as it was intended, then I still see "punishment", as it was called in the link that was given, as being a very valuable tool. A well behaved dog, like a well behaved child, is a treasure and a blessing. An unruly dog or child is an embarassment to all. I am no expert trainer and do not have the skills to accomplish what I am certain many have with the use of clickers and treats and I would likely only cause myself and my dog more grief by trying. I have seen this done and don't want to become that way. If I knew as much as some of you then perhaps I too would choose this way. For me, the positive results of the use of a pinch collar for leash training is undeniable. But again, my compliments to those who have experienced great success with other ways. That is why I am here is to learn other ways than my own to accomplish things with better results.

I'm just a construction worker and spend a good portion of my days on the job or travelling to and from it and then come home to work on my farm. My time to spend in training with my dogs is limited and I much prefer playing with them instead. My basenji is mostly going to be my saddle buddy so we can spend many happy hours just running around together. I do hope to some day reach a point where I can use her to hunt chuckar, pheasant and hungarian partridge but I doubt that I will ever master this. Basenji's are great hunters and I think that due to a lack of understanding in training a lot of their potential in the field is largely unused.

Basenji's are about the most beautiful dog there is and their physique is unparallelled. They are an amazing creation and I am completely enamored with my little girl. I will never acheive the results that have been performed in the agility ring, partly because I cannot dedicate my life completely to that but mostly because I lack the capacity to possess such skills. I thank you all for your input and look forward to hearing ideas on how to better accomplish my goals with my little Molly. I wish I knew and understood even a fraction of what you guys do.

[lvoss]

In the thread on house breaking you have already described seeing the adverse of effects of punishment in your girl.

You keep saying that you have seen disasterous results of clicker training. Can you elaborate on what those are?

The article I posted is the position statement of professional animal behaviorists and is based on a lot of experience.