Peeing in the crate

[pennypen]

Westcoast this is the fiance. you need to get a life, after megan told me how you treated her, I just had to spend 30 minutes of my life reading the dribble you had to contribute. The dog is obviously loved, cared for and it would be a travesty to take her out of a happy home. Just because you take in fosters does not give you a higher moral ground. you are probably a poor loser who it seems like even her own roomates want nothing to do with them. Get a life, be able to afford your own home, grow up and take a step off your high horse. In the future since it seems you have so much free time to dedicate just to your dogs, take an hour or two and work on some people skills. Lastly, to attack someone who is asking for help is down right sociopathic, and to denigrate them is complete opposite of what this forum is intended for. God Bless, get help not only for your own sake but probably for the dogs that you take care of. In the future, basic rule of thumb if its not positive, keep it to yourself

[pennypen]

@tlish:

for the europeans that are against crating, i think it's just a really different cultural expectation. i think they are quite a bit more progressive than here when it comes to animal rights (not that i think crating is cruel, but they are more apt to find it appalling in europe than here). they don't allow ear cropping and tail docking, either (i wish we'd adopt the same).

and westcoastflea1, why are you now attacking rottweilers and pegging them as attack dogs?? working as closely with rescue as you do, i'm sure you know how many basenjis are re-homed/surrendered due to aggression and biting.

Thank you. And i do agree about the tail docking … i think THAT is cruel but also i'm not going to tell some one they are wrong because that is the standard in the breed and the way its done.
I am definiatly going to look into DAP.

Also would also like to just throw this out there that Penny (since i got home at 5:30 ... i had off yesterday i do NOT work 6 days) has napped 75% of the time ... either laying on me or my fiance .... she woke up to play for 30 mins and then back to a nap lol literally this dog loves sleep more than me and i didn't think that was possible.:rolleyes:

And i too think it a little comical that west coast mad such a nasty comment about rotties which i have spent alot of time around and have got to be one of the sweetest breeds, just dont meess with their family

Anyways beside the 2 people who were negative, everyone else has been very helpful and I will continue to ask for advice since this is my first basenji and hope its not my last

[tlish]

ha! i was going to say the same thing about the weekends! suki sleeps all day whether i'm here or not. and at exactly 11:00 pm, she goes and whines at the bedroom door. she's in bed alone right now, and i'm out here on the computer!

[pennypen]

btw ii love the name suki … thought about naming Penny that but we are Philadelphian's livin in TX we Penny is not just the color of her coat but kind of stands for Pennsylvania lol

I actually just went on Amazon and read alot of reviews on DAT and decided to order it. Tototally worth the $22 even if it doesnt work because at least we know. Sounds amazing thought for the people it works for and if it works i will seriously hug that little diffuser lol

[Elscodobermann]

Wow. Westcoastflea and Debradownsouth really need to learn some manners. This is the problem with the written word, as opposed to talking face to face i can bet things would NOT have escalated in this way. This thread has been taken way of line, by them being simply abusive to each other (and to me) which isnt helping the OP at all, and if any moderators are about the thread should really be closed.

At no point did i say that the OP was a bad owner - she is on here looking for help and advice so she is obviously wanting to do whats best for her dog. - we wont all give the same advice though. I also think that the idea of rehoming thru BRAT is not right - im sure they are busy with real rescue cases - where as here the OP is an owner who just wants help to get thru these issues. As i said before i personally dont agree with crating for so long, so i gave that opinion, and some suggestions on ways that i thought would help, as they have helped for me and for people i know.

And yes, most people work all day, so if they want a dog they have to find ways to make dog ownership suit their lifestyle - or rather make their lifestyle suit dog ownership. Maybe there is a cultural difference, as i can guarantee that no-one in the uk would be happy selling a pup that was going to be crated all day while the owners are at work. If both owners work full time as most do, then there has to be something in place i.e a dog walker, a relative or such to see to the dog, or facilities like an outdoor space with a run for it to relieve itself. Thats just the way it is here so we have real difficulty understanding the general American point of view.

[nomrbddgs]

OMG, here we go again, getting away from the issue and making it personal. The OP asked for advice about helping with an issue. She is asking how to make it (the crate) a little more acceptable to her dog, which she actually loves very much.

To the OP, sounds like she has separation anxiety. Since you have stated that even when looked after by others, she sits by the door, or constantly looks for you, maybe you should try the DAP or a rescue remedy type of option. I myself have a girl that has separation anxiety, she has come to the point where I don't crate her in the house as she doesn't just whine and cry, she looses control of her bowels and will literally spin in her poop and throw it everywhere and make a huge mess. Then she gets herself into such a state where I think she could have a heart attack. So, I just don't crate her in the house. She's fine in the car or a hotel room, just not in the house.

I, personally, would start to work on leaving her alone for a few minutes at a time, outside the crate, when I went to do a short errand. Such as walk to the end of the drive, outside for a 1 minute break, etc. then increase the time. You might find that if you start small and extend the time, she will be less destructive.

For the europeans, I agree with less crate timing, but sometimes it's just not a reality here. While we do have some options in doggy daycare, sometimes the way things are set up at the daycare, (and they are not on every street corner here) it's more detrimental to the dog to take them there than to go it alone. I've seen some of the daycares here and I wouldn't even bring a mouse here the way some of them are run. Add to that is the cost. I believe some of them are way out of line on their prices. $100 bucks a week when your pay is only 3 to 5 times that amount is ridiculous. So other options must be found.

Add to this, some dogs love their crate. My other girl starts to run circles in front of her crate about 9pm and INSISTS on going in her crate then until the am. There are just some dogs that are this way. I hate putting her in there, as I would prefer to leave her out, but SHE wants to go in there. I have tried to leave her out and she just continues her pacing until the crate is opened.

So, take heart and try a few of the options mentioned here. It just might help with some of the anxiety.

[Ellusionz]

Is it possible to tire her out before you goto work? Or maybe put in a doggie dvd and some chew bones to distract her during the day? I'd also recommend some puppy pads around the cage to save any flooring you have I started trying to do the cage thing but a couple weeks after I got her my girl caught kennel cough. I had to separate her upstairs from the other dog with this 40" high gate (works great!) and have just been giving her the upstairs to roam when I leave. Less whining now, but my mom or friend is usually home and she probably knows that.

I was also checking out some pet things in my area and found this small company called pedalpaws. They're not taking new clients but they say for $10 they come out and bike with your dog for 20 minutes, letting your dog set the pace! Sounds neat to me, and a pretty good price if it tires the dog out LOL.

[gjrcvw]

Is it possible that she sleeps when you get home because she can finally relax?

Is she in a wire or plastic crate now and what size? Have you tried a larger size or if this one is already large, can you try a smaller size? Can you try a different location for the crate? Or, do you have a laundry room or entry way that has solid flooring and is dog proofable that you could use for this purpose?

I think you need to determine whether this is separation anxiety, crate anxiety, or neither. If her anxiety is actually very high, you need help from the vet in alleviating it. What do you think– does she have a true separation anxiety? Or is her behavior more the kind that just needs to get used to being alone / in the crate?

[gjrcvw]

I just went back and reread your descriptions of her behavior in and out of the crate when you are gone and this does sound like separation anxiety. Your vet can prescribe medication that will help her calm, but you need to use behavior modification as well.

This is a real problem and can be helped. It is not because you crate her all day. Here is an article about the disorder:
https://www.reconcile.com/_layouts/downloads/media/coverage/Reconcile-VTX-Spring07-Simpson.pdf

This one is a bit of an easier read:
http://www.cpvh.com/Articles/47.html

The major issue is that this is a veterinary and a behavioral issue. Treatment (medicine) is generally given for two months while behavior modification is implemented. The dogs are actively suffering from this– so if you can get to the vet, describe all of the behavior, the destruction of toys and of your floors, the peeing and pooping when left alone in the house, etc-- and determine whether she would do well with treatment.

[agilebasenji]

OMG - somehow I missed this thread. It makes my head hurt, so maybe just as well. Megan, I'm going to give you some hopefully helpful advice. It's good that your DAP is on the way. It may help, there are NO side effects so it certainly won't hurt. Also go to dogwise.com or amazon and look for a dvd called Crate Games and a booklet called I'll Be Home Soon. (I have not read the second, but Dr McConnell is always insightful. Just checked and amazon has the booklet for the kindle, so if you have one you could have that booklet now! how cool is that.)

Also, I'd get some food dispensing toys if you feed your pup kibble. It's fun and entertaining and keeps their little brains occupied. (Something like this:
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=K9X044 )

The info from gjrcvw looks like good advice, but I don't have time to read all of it right now. Certainly severe cases of separation anxiety can need medication, but that's something you will need to discuss with a vet. AND you will need a plan of action to go along with the meds (looks like that is addressed in one of those articles). Then you can wean the dog off the meds. The stuff I suggested should not be incompatible with the meds.

And look for a good postive class. Clicker training is so much fun and will enhance your relationship with your dog. Look for a family dog class or something that sounds like fun. I took a dance class with Zest! and it was a blast. I've been doing agility for more than 10 years (yes, I love it that much) and the dance class was just as much fun. Maybe more (did I just say that?!?)

Also, don't bother responding to some posts. it's just not worth the effort.

In the meantime, good luck and keep us posted.

[agilebasenji]

Oh, forgot to add, I would NOT get another puppy or young dog right now. You don't want 2 dogs acting like that. An older more settled dog might be okay. Even a cat might be okay, but if you get another untrained young dog, he'll pick up on Penny's anxiety and think that's the way to behave. Maybe you could borrow a friend's dog or offer to foster so that you could do a test run.

[Janneke]

@nomrbddgs:

For the europeans, I agree with less crate timing, but sometimes it's just not a reality here. While we do have some options in doggy daycare, sometimes the way things are set up at the daycare, (and they are not on every street corner here) it's more detrimental to the dog to take them there than to go it alone. I've seen some of the daycares here and I wouldn't even bring a mouse here the way some of them are run. Add to that is the cost. I believe some of them are way out of line on their prices. $100 bucks a week when your pay is only 3 to 5 times that amount is ridiculous. So other options must be found.

You make it sound like it's easy for us to find solutions when we work full time. First off.. In my country it's not so 'normal' to have a dog when you work full time. I think I can say that most responsible breeders won't place puppies in homes where the dog has to stay home alone all day. A lot of the organisations that rehome dogs also won't place dogs with people that aren't home as often as necessary. If you are going to tell them you are planning to keep the dog in a cage 8 hours a day, they will tell you to get a stuffed animal. Having a dog is not for everyone.
Then the daycare.. We haven't got a lot of them either and the ones we have aren't all that great. I also pay a fortune for daycare, that's a choice. I spend less money on going to dinner, clothes, make up and whatever. And if I couldn't afford it and didn't have another option… again.. I wouldn't have a dog..

I think it's a bit too easy to say it's a 'cultural thing'.. The dogs in the US and here in Europe are all the same and all react the same to a certain treatment. If you're truly honoust, you can't say it's fair to a dog to put it in a cage that long. And saying that 'you also have to work and don't like it' is way too easy.. A dog can't choose for itself. You can.

[gjrcvw]

Regardless, for this particular dog and human, that is neither here nor there. The dog has anxiety no matter where she is, whether she leaves a sitter with her or not. She has anxiety when her human leaves. That is what needs to be addressed, not anyone's ideologies re crates/ not crate/ europe/ us.

[DebraDownSouth]

@westcoastflea1:

your replies are by far the rudest and most offensive of any member here
the right to be offensive, smug, conceited and just plain nasty
you are rude and nasty most of the time
might be fun to make a compilation of all the rude things you have said to people in the past, im sure take up at least 3 or 4 pages

I find the fact that you are always talking about your rotties to be very revealing what is it they say about people resembling their dogs ?
it must be true since you are definitely in attack mode at least 75% of the time
the double standard by which you live is absolutely laughabley

Your post more personally abusive than all mine combined and multiplied by 200. I won't even go into the stereotyping.

Why don't you go compile that list, because even though most of it will simply be your taking exception and not really nasty, it should keep you occupied and stop you hijacking this thread.

[DebraDownSouth]

@gjrcvw:

Your vet can prescribe medication that will help her calm, but you need to use behavior modification as well.

I actually was going to suggest that.

I had a severely abused Lhasa rescue who had been in a crate in the basement … well long story short, we put her on meds for almost 6 mos, did not crate at all for over a month, but would toss her treat into a crate with the door removed for her to retrieve. Slowly but surely over a 3 mo period her behaviors began to change. (LOL a laundry plastic laundry hamper dropped over her to stop her attacks when she charged to attack me--which she would do if stressed-- also was used. Normally rescue would have euthanized her but due to her severe abuse, we wanted to give her a chance and thank goodness we did. The laundry basket was suggested by a behaviorist to give her time to realize she might be stress, but no one would hurt her.. and it only took about 5 or 6 times til the charging stopped.) I had her for almost 10 mos before she was ready to be placed, but without the medications we would never have gotten her even safe, much less adoptable.

We reached a point where she could be crated for car rides and at the vets without utterly wigging out (and thank goodness we did as a couple of years later she got eye injury and was at the hospital for almost 2 weeks). But I placed her in a home where she lived without needing to ever be crated except at the vets, with cats to keep her company and not so much as a raised voice til she died about 7 yrs later.

[DebraDownSouth]

@Janneke:

You make it sound like it's easy for us to find solutions when we work full time. First off.. In my country it's not so 'normal' to have a dog when you work full time. I think I can say that most responsible breeders won't place puppies in homes where the dog has to stay home alone all day. A lot of the organisations that rehome dogs also won't place dogs with people that aren't home as often as necessary.

I started to post links about European dog issues from strays to dumping increases prior to holiday times, etc. but that really isn't the point. This isn't "my country is better than yours."

No country is perfect. And while you may feel 8 hours in a crate is abusive, not all agree. I wouldn't place a PUPPY in a home where there were not people to let it out a couple of times a day, but adults… absolutely. If rescues here eliminated all working families, we'd have to euthanize many times more dogs than we already do.

I admit there are progressive things in many European countries, such as tail docking and ear cropping legislation and bans. But can we simply agree to disagree that crating for 8 hours is a bad thing and just help her solve the issue of a clearly loved dog?

[westcoastflea1]

for the record
i have stated in previous posts very very clearly that i was in no way SERIOUS about the woman giving up her dog

amazing how people love to grab onto the "rescue lady says dog should be rehomed" but seem to have missed the post where i also stated that it was not meant to be taken seriously was simply being used to illustrate a point
a point which was needlessly heavy handed that i APOLOGIZED for but i guess that post was missed as well ?

i guess the post where i stated quite clearly in black and white that i in no way said or thought that she was a bad dog owner or didnt love her dog was missed as well?

in one post i explained why i used the rehoming statement
it was used to make this woman think about the fact that maybe she is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and that perhaps this particular dog who has real issues with being left alone so much of the time in a crate should have its point of view respected and that maybe a compromise could be worked out and that there were many families that would be willing to make that compromise

i also stated that addressing the root of the problem might be a good approach rather then trying to deal with symptoms

why did i think something needed to be said?

when planning a wedding and purchasing a home means you cant afford to do something to keep your dog from being alone and crated 8 hours a day maybe you do need someone to point out that you were one that chose to own a dog when you work full time and that if the dog is not a dog that will accept this arrangement that perhaps you need to make some sort of financial sacrifice to work with your dog

the dog clearly has more then a normal reaction to being separated or crated and it really bothers me that the owner flatly refuses to consider any of the options given that involve getting the dog out of the crate because it might involve some sort of financial sacrifice

if you want to argue against my opinion of what a dog is owed by its owner thats fine
if you want to take exception to the example i used to make this point thats fine too ive already accepted that it was not a good example to use and apologized for it

so feel free to argue with my ideas but please make sure that you are arguing about facts not what you might have gotten from another persons posts that have nothing to do with the facts

[gjrcvw]

@westcoastflea1:

so feel free to argue with my ideas but please make sure that you are arguing about facts not what you might have gotten from another persons posts that have nothing to do with the facts

I think you have been heard– you've expressed your point of view and I think people have read it.

So..... on to the question asked in the OP? Peace?

[pennypen]

i think i have read this thread like 5 times lol
I love all the advice and opptions I now have that never knew about. The DAP is on its way and at my dog's 1 year check up next week i will be sure to talk to her about her anxieties and she what she thinks what steps i should take.
gjrcvw: Thank you so much for those links! I had no idea how mayny symptoms there were! Penny exibits most of those when we leave and freaks out if she cant find us in the house which is 3 times bigger than our apartment. I knew she was attached but didn't know dogs could have this kind of anxiety about it and am so glad i now know. I feel so stupid for thinking she was doing it because she was just mad at us.

I would also like to say i have stated (many times in this thread) that i have tried NOT crating her but because she gets so upset when we leave it is not possible. We have left her for a hour before AFTER she has had a couple hours at the dog park and she still peed everywhere and tore up carpet …. she doesnt rest while we are away. We put her in our guest room in the apartment one day at work and she eat the mattress lol it's funny now but we learned we couldnt even do that.

Oh and to West .... i honestly believe you did mean it when you said i should rehome Penny. You only said you dint mean it and started back peddling when people started standing up for me. Also i didnt flatly refuse every option just the ones that weren;t an option. Also we aren't buying a house we bought one ... with a yard. Penny would be more tramatized at a day care because she HATE being with out us. she freaks at the dog park if i leave the enclosed area to get more water. I never refused the dog walker option because i have thought of it i just dont know anyone in our neighbor hood and don't trust just anyone with my dog ... would you trust a starnger with your child ... you proably don't have children but that's how i feel about Penny.
The point is your mean harted posts did nothing to help me but all these other people cared enough to actually give me real solid advice and articles to read and options to look into that might work for us. That is mine and everyones point. You did nothing but make me cry (which i really did AT work when i read your postS)
And for you to say you suggested i deal with the root ... well i didn;t know what for sure was the root and you didnt bother to help with that just said to deal with it or give her up basically.
Finacially we eat out once everyother weekend, i dont know when the last time i got to buy new clothes. I feed her preium holistic dog food and get her a new toy or sweater (cause its cold nnow) rather than get myself a new pair of shoes or shirts even tho i need them because i care thats she is happy and comfortable. We have money saved and we aren not poor by any means but right now because we did just buy a house last month and have our wedding in May things are a bit tight because we dont want to be in finacial distress if something did happen. ANd as i have said before when we live 5 mins from work penny was only in her crate 6 hours because pat would come home on his lunch and then i would be home on mine so she only have two 3 hours chunks of being in the crate. Unfortunatly that is not the case because my lunch is only 30 mins now and i work 20 mins from the house and my fiance has been trying to get things done on his lunch break this last month so hasn;t had the time to come home WHICH is why i had psted this because it bothers me she IS in the crate that long with out a break.
ANyways enough said. Thanks again for the help, I have a lot of reading up to do so i can be more educated on my options.

Thats all i'm done, i just got back from spending 3 hours are the dog park and now its it Patrick turn to take a nap with her while i go see Harry Potter with some girl friends.

I'll keep you guys posted when i get the DAP this week and how it goes ... i'm really hoping i works because it would be amazing if it worked so well we could trust her in the house. Definitly not getting my hopes up.

[Patty]

I have come on the forum after a couple of day's absence and have tried to pick out your salient points beyond the disagreements. I'm pretty much convinced that this is a crate issue and I think it's better to concentrate on relieving that problem - there is quite a bit of professional advice on crate training on the net and also as given by some of the previous posts and I would advise you use the links suggested previously for a start. Many of us do have Basenjis with crate problems. I have one particular bitch who just will not accept being crated. After trying all sorts of ways to persuade her I gave up. But i'm lucky in that normally I don't have to crate any of my Basenjis for any period of time and definitely wouldn't have them if I did.

Circumstances obviously dictate that you have to crate your dog but I'm sure you try to make up for that when you're home.

I agree that you might find it easier to teach her to be better behaved when she's left loose in a room for the time you have to be away rather than work to get her happy in the crate (perhaps a combination of both?).

I see that much practical advice has been given in these postings - it's up to you to sort this out but please try to accept that many have extremely strong views and I'm sure don't mean to be unkind.

Personally I don't like confining dogs for long periods at a time and wouldn't sell a puppy to someone that had to, but I do appreciate that not everyone is the same. It's untrue that Uk people do not crate their dogs for long periods as I believe that somebody posted - some do and some don't and I imagine that's the same in any country. People are peoplefter all!

As to the peeing - make sure that you use a product to completely neutralise the smell, Basenjis have very keen noses and washing is not usually enough. She may be peeing because the odour is still lingering.