@DebraDownSouth we've tried doggie ramps she is just too stubborn. Physically she is in great shape the vet said he would mistake her for a 7yr old. So it's just the behaviors and now what we believe is confusion.
Coat Color Inheritance in basenji
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There is quite a difference here in the UK - the basenjis I've looked at in the links seem to have black ancestors as well. I can't recall having had a Fula Black in that case, in this country. We do have the Fula Tris who only have red/whites and tris in their ancestry. Fula,imported from the Sudan in 1959 by Veronica Tudor Williamns is thought to have carried this recessive gene. Fula Tris crop up very rarely - one breeder I know is devoted to the Fula Tris and has attempted over many years to find a sure way to breed them but it really seems to be a matter of luck. Incidentally, the Antefaas have bred 1 Fula Tri in 68 years!
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To have a Dominant Black the dog MUST have a black parent. Recessive blacks are born to two non-black parents.
My breeding this fall may produce both Dominant and Recessive blacks since my dominant black girl is an Avongara Rease of Brushy Run granddaughter and the sire is a great grandson of Ponedog's Serendipity and a producer of barred tris.
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There have only ever been a very few breeders of black/whites in this country as you know. Jayne Stringer having been one. When the black/whites were introduced there were many breeders, here who wouldn't accept them. So I suppose that is why we haven't had Fula Blacks (as far as I know) although some breeders also called (and do still) the Fula Tris, 'Fula Blacks'
Looking at the photos of the Fula Black, I wouldn't think that many could tell the difference from a Fula Tri except by study of the pedigree. What's your opinion please, Ivoss?
Can anyone, please, let me have any links to photos of more Fula Blacks.
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I am not sure how you are using your terminology.
In the US, "Fula Tris" are what are also called "barred tris" because they have a bar of black that run across the tan of their cheeks.
You can see an example on this site, http://www.coho.net/~tattooed/meeka.htm
and also on this one if you scroll down to Deano,
http://www.hicotn.com/domestic.html"Fula Blacks" are a bit more complicated because they seem to range from pipless tris to what appear to be true recessive blacks with no tan in the coat whatsoever.
Avongara Black Opal of Brushy Run is a very good example of one with no tan bleeding, http://www.basenji.org/african/OpalBR.htm
SunDiata's TwentyOne Gold is more of a pipless tri
From the front, http://www.npgcable.com/~basenji/Gallery/pedigrees/images/TwentyOneGold.jpgFrom the rear, http://www.npgcable.com/~basenji/Gallery/pedigrees/images/TwentyOneGold2.jpg
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We call the Barred Tris simply that - Barred Tris. It seems we have a terminology difference. Here the Fula tri is a recessive (first occurring seemingly after the introduction of Fula to this couintry, hence the name). They are often very black at birth but later on examination have red hairs mainly round the breech and on the inside of the back legs. They have no melon pips. The only one I've bred had, in adulthood, almost a red undercoat in the summer. Others I've seen in adulthood develop a 'muddy' colour coat. The term here has been confused with Fula black which until now I've not understood. Elspeth Ford (Taysenji) introduced the term Fula Black which I assume was from the US but the early breeders and especially Veronica who I believe, invented the term Fula Tri. were very put out about it and insisted that it was incorrect. Do you use this term even where no black/white Basenjis are in the pedigree? Thank you for the links I'll open them now, I've not seen many barred tris.
Thank you, you've cleared up a misunderstanding.
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A "Fula Black" does not have black and whites in its pedigree except other "Fula Blacks". It is a term used, at least in the US, to describe recessive blacks which are genetically distinct from Dominant Blacks.
The vast majority of black and white basenjis are dominant blacks, requiring one black parent to get the color. These dogs are NOT "fula blacks".
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I've just got confused again. It seems that we're both talking about the same colouring but by different names. I was just assuming that there might also be a Fula Black and a Fula Tri, my apologies.
Thank you, Ivoss
I'm afraid I tend to be very traditional and as Veronica was my first mentor I haven't moved on a lot since her imparted knowledge. I pay tribute to these early breeders as without them we might never have had our lovely dogs
Thank you for the links, they're very enlightening. Have you ever come across a Fula Black withiout the red breech?
This is what I enjoy about this forum there's always things to learn from others.
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Yes, Avongara Black Opal of Brushy Run and Avongara Pepe of Brushy Run are Fula Blacks without the red breech.
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Sorry completely OT :o…
Ive had the pleasure of seeing Avongara Black Opal of Brushy Run, at the Victorian Specialty, Australia, in Jan 2010... I didnt know there were any Avongara's down here at all, so I think I nearly did a doubletake when I spotted her. I was absolutely speechless. Raced over to the catalogue, to confirm what, or I should say, who she was... Yep, it was an Avongara. I couldnt take my eyes off her... A very different bitch to anything I have seen at all. She had a rock solid temperament too. Very calm, and very snuggly with her owner :).
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Opal is my Sophie's Aunt. She is a half sister of Sophie's sire, Avongara Cole of Brushy Run.
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Hi to everyone.
I've read all your posts and I'm going to answear. I'm not sure if I
understan everything, but let me try.I breed a basenji female, Malmsey In Red Asiaczek. Father Abotere
Adunbi (brindle white), Mother Jelly Joshreen Asiaczek (red&white).
Malmsey has two brothers coloured trindle (I think you call it black
and white striped on the tan), Fula Tri. FCL does't accept this
colour.In 2002 in KANIBARU Australia breeding was born Fula Black female,
after red&white parents.
http://www.kanibaru.com/2002pups.htmlWe call Fula black all unussual types with black colour.
I've found such a key to coated (the gene combinations that give the
following phenotypes):
D - not dilute d- dilute
Y - Red y - tri
K - Black K^br - brindle k - neither black nor brindle
Red and White - DDkkYY, DDkkYy, DdkkYY, DdkkYy
Black and White - DDKkYY, DDKkYy, DDKkyy, DDKKYY, DDKKYy, DDKKyy,
DdKkYY, DdKkYy, DdKkyy, DdKKYY, DdKKYy, DdKKyy, DDKK^brYY, DDKK^brYy,
DDKK^bryy, DdKK^brYY, DdKK^brYy, DdKK^bryy
Brindle and White - DDK^brkYY, DDK^brkYy, DDK^brK^brYY, DDK^brK^brYy,
DdK^brkYY, DdK^brkYy, DdK^brK^brYY, DdK^brK^brYy
Tri-color - DDkkyy, Ddkkyy
Trindle - DdK^brK^bryy, DdK^brkyy, DDK^brK^bryy, DDK^brkyy
Blue and White - ddKkYY, ddKkYy, ddKkyy, ddKKYY, ddKKYy,
ddKKyy,ddKK^brYY, ddKK^brYy, ddKK^bryy
Blue Fawn and White - ddkkYY, ddkkYy
Blue Tri - ddkkyy
Blue Brindle and White - ddK^brkYY, ddK^brkYy, ddK^brK^brYY, ddK^brK^brYyI wonder if "y" doesn't mean colours, ex.: sable, black etc.
There is one more link to whippet but the locus is different - you can
see by yourself: -
All red basenjis are sables. They are born with black hairs in their coats that disappear over time, a^y is red or sable.
Here are some links to the a canine coat color genetics site that talks about these Loci.
Red/Tri/recessive black
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.htmlDominant Black/Brindle
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/brindle.html -
thank you Ivoss
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"Yes, Avongara Black Opal of Brushy Run and Avongara Pepe of Brushy Run are Fula Blacks without the red breech."
I disagree. Firstly -fula black is a misnomer when using it with regards to the Avongaras as they do not have a speck of Fula blood in them. This term, in my opinion, should never be used when describing anything to do with the Avongaras as we could be talking about completely different genes. Which is why we (the breed fancy) should bring our terminology into 2010.
I contacted Bev regarding this discussion as I was concerned about misinformation re: her dogs when we (she) does not know for certainty WHAT her dogs are exactly in relations to color. I know it is her goal to get all dogs involved DNA tested though I am not sure if there is a definitive test should the parents be recessive reds (to mean that they are in fact black and white but have a gene or modifier that "turns off" the black color; think yellow Labradors - they are genetically black dogs but phenotypically yellow in color) or they (the parents) carry the true recessive black genes (how geneticists define it, not the basenji fancy) which is said to be the rarest and the most recessive allele in the Agouti (A) series and NOT a tri color. Or perhaps they are in fact what the fancy calls fula blacks - pheno black/white with possible/eventual bleeding but genetically tri color.
Unless and until they are DNA tested, or start to bleed through or produce their color we do not know for certainty what they are and in my opinion we should not be labeling them as anything at this time - esp. in light of the fact that they do NOT go back to Fula and do not carry the same genes that can produce the fula blacks, tris and/or barred tris of which we speak and are somewhat familiar. If anyone is to label them it should be Bev that does it as they are her dogs, her pedigrees, et al.
Bev did ask that I attach a picture of her 2 1/2 year old full Avongara black and white out of two reds Pepe, Opals brother. See below in another post. What a lovely outline!
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Fula Black is a misnomer in our breed period. It is a term that is used in the breed to describe dogs that appear black at birth and didn't have a black parent and maybe is being used to describe what is two different genetics even within the domestic genepool.
Bev's blacks cannot be from recessive red hiding dominant black. Their sire is a brindle therefore cannot be a recessive red and is obviously not black. Their dam had a tri dam and her sire's parents were both brindle so though Glory could be a "recessive red" the only color it could be hiding is brindle not black. Not only that just like the lines that carry "fula black", Glory's dam is a barred tri and Grease has produced barred tris/trindles. There is no reason to think that the genes in the Avongaras are anything different from what is already known to exist in the basenji genepool.
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Thank you for your further clarification and I must say I hadn't thought it through when viewing the links of Avongaras. The points you raise are very valid.
I would particularly like to be informed of the results should Bev have DNA tests done in the future. Would that be possibly borne in mind? For no reason apart from my devoted and lifelong interest in Basenjis. The advent of these 'new' Africans has raised a number of interesting questions.What a beautiful dog Pepe is nd as you say a lovely outline. Thank you for posting the picture.
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Unless and until they are DNA tested, or start to bleed through or produce their color we do not know for certainty what they are and in my opinion we should not be labeling them as anything at this time - esp. in light of the fact that they do NOT go back to Fula and do not carry the same genes that can produce the fula blacks, tris and/or barred tris of which we speak and are somewhat familiar.
The above statement is NOT true. The do carry the genes that produce barred tris.
Avongara Nafuu of Brushy Run, the granddam of the recessive blacks in question, is a barred tri, http://www.basenji.org/african/Nafuu.htm
Avongara Cole of Brushy Run, from a different litter with the same sire as the recessive blacks, is a barred trindle, http://www.basenji.org/african/Cole.htm
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Sadly Lisa we really do not know enough about the genes in question to boldly state they equivocally ARE the same genes. Some would argue (and still do) that the Avongaras are not purebred so certainly not of the same ilk as Fula. (No, not me!)
Yes, we can presume they are the same based on what we do know but that is all. Or certainly as far as I would be willing to go.
I wonder though, since brindle is a patten and not a color would it be affected by the genes modifying/making recessive reds? A question I need to ask a geneticist.
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Brindle is a mutation of the gene that causes dominant black as stated in the link that I posted to the Schmutz site. "All of the following dog breeds are black, brown or grey because of KB and could be tested for homozygosity. Both the brindle mutation and the ky allele are recessive to KB. Distinguishing these two recessive alleles with a "simple" DNA test is not yet possible since the brindle mutation is a complex mutation."
Recessive Reds cannot produce black hairs so cannot be brindle.
The genetic research done by the canine genome project supports that phenotypically similar traits found in different breeds are most often caused by the same genes. In this case we have phenotypically similar traits in the same breed, so though without DNA testing it can't be definitively proven, it is more likely than not that they are the same genes. They definately behave the same, lines with barred tris produced recessive blacks in both the pre-Avongara cases and now in the Avongara one.
