Okay, deep growling..when moving Tobias?

[tanza]

@Mantis:

Well, what is interesting about this topic is that you can often read of basenjis that have been put onto the Brat rescue pages because of the growling and parents afraid for their children.

It is important to determine if it is killer growling or just grumbles.

Most likely both, and grumbles can certainly lead to "real growling" and possible biting…

[nomrbddgs]

Oh, I didn't say I would put up with it-just meant that I would expect it more.

[Quercus]

Right…and a dog that "grumbles" at an adult may very well snap at child. So I can understand why families with kids may not want to wait around to find out how serious the dog is.

Again, this is why we say over and over that Basenjis are not for everyone! They are a Level 3 breed, and way too many Level 1 owners end up with them, and have no idea what to expect, and how to deal with issues...

[Mantis]

can you tell us what the levels mean? I have never heard of that?

[felakuti]

I can still remember the first time i ever met a basenji, they were in crates at a dog show in boston…as i approached one of the crates the little dog in the crate let out with the most unbelievably scarey growls and snarls i have ever heard in my life. scared the heck out of me. we are on our third and fourth Bs now and i really respect that little growl when it starts. let sleeping dogs lie.

[Quercus]

@Mantis:

can you tell us what the levels mean? I have never heard of that?

Well…it isn't anything really formal. I stole it from a workshop I went to a few months ago. Sue Sternberg said, and I will paraphrase: There are different levels of which people are involved in dog ownership. The huge majority of people are Level 1 dog owners...they want a nice family dog, they don't want to invest much time, money or effort training it, they don't want to accept a lot of "quirkiness" in a dog. Level 2 dog owners are willing to put some time and effort into their dog's behavior. They often wanted a Level 1 dog, but ended up with a Level 2 dog, and were committed enough to the dog to get some help and training. Then there are the Level 3 dog owners...we kinda like dogs that are more of a challenge. Could be trainers that like a "project" dog, or rescuers that take a dog nobody else wants, or people who end up with an aggressive dog and learn everything they can about working with aggressive dogs (raising hand). People who don't mind moving the garbage and the toilet paper to keep it out of the dog's way...people who rearrange their back yard for the dogs' enjoyment...you get the picture So many basenjis are Level 3...and even the best basenji is a Level 2

Make more sense?

[Duke]

@felakuti:

I can still remember the first time i ever met a basenji, they were in crates at a dog show in boston…as i approached one of the crates the little dog in the crate let out with the most unbelievably scarey growls and snarls i have ever heard in my life. scared the heck out of me. we are on our third and fourth Bs now and i really respect that little growl when it starts. let sleeping dogs lie.

Ha ha ha! LOL!! This is really funny! I can only imagine the look on your face. :eek: Thanks - I really needed a good chuckle!

[gbroxon]

Magnum started snarking at my husband moving him from his sleeping place (on our bed) a few months after we got him (he was over a year old, at the time). Before that, my husband just scooped him up and moved him. All it took to manage his behavior was for my husband to offer a tiny treat for an "off" and a "sit." Magnum now knows the routine and, as soon as my husband opens the bedroom door, is off the bed and sitting, waiting for his treat, allowing for my husband to claim his place and then Magnum to claim his.

I think snarky sleep behavior is a Basenji trait. I also feel that sometimes managing the behavior, rather than trying to eliminate it, makes everyone happy. It did for us, in this type of situation.

[tanza]

@gbroxon:

Magnum started snarking at my husband moving him from his sleeping place (on our bed) a few months after we got him (he was over a year old, at the time). Before that, my husband just scooped him up and moved him. All it took to manage his behavior was for my husband to offer a tiny treat for an "off" and a "sit." Magnum now knows the routine and, as soon as my husband opens the bedroom door, is off the bed and sitting, waiting for his treat, allowing for my husband to claim his place and then Magnum to claim his.

I think snarky sleep behavior is a Basenji trait. I also feel that sometimes managing the behavior, rather than trying to eliminate it, makes everyone happy. It did for us, in this type of situation.

You are correct, but that goes for all dogs… manage the behavior which when you think about it, eliminates it.....
And not sure that it is just a Basenji trait...

[Quercus]

@gbroxon:

Magnum started snarking at my husband moving him from his sleeping place (on our bed) a few months after we got him (he was over a year old, at the time). Before that, my husband just scooped him up and moved him. All it took to manage his behavior was for my husband to offer a tiny treat for an "off" and a "sit." Magnum now knows the routine and, as soon as my husband opens the bedroom door, is off the bed and sitting, waiting for his treat, allowing for my husband to claim his place and then Magnum to claim his.

I think snarky sleep behavior is a Basenji trait. I also feel that sometimes managing the behavior, rather than trying to eliminate it, makes everyone happy. It did for us, in this type of situation.

I consider what you did to be training there, gbroxon. Management would be saying the dog isn't allowed to sleep in the bed anymore because of the behavior.

Management is what we do when either there is no simple training solution (eg trying to get two dogs who hate each other to live together) or when we can't invest the time at the moment, or for some other reason it is impossible to train a new/replacement behavior (eg table surfing at our house is at an all time high because my son offers food and drops food and leaves food for the dogs; I don't have the time, and he doesn't have the capacity to change right now, so dogs don't hang out in the room while we eat)

Anyhow, I think what you are saying is you can't train how the dog "feels" about interupting his sleep, but you can change how they react…which I think is absolutely accurate....and I think that is a great way to train.

[Mantis]

thanks for the input on the levels as well. very interesting.

[gbroxon]

Okay, maybe we're playing semantics here, but I truly feel we are managing (and not eliminating) this behavior, because if my husband (or I?) tried again to move him while sleeping I feel confident his snarky behavior would again assert itself.

I feel that my B is way more stubborn and out to please himself (rather than me/us) than other breeds I've had (labs, dobies, rotties, mixes), and I've had to devise different methods to get the behavior I want when it comes to him. A lot of times, my mind travels to how to manage a bad habit, rather than how to eliminate it.

[Quercus]

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[luzmery928]

Champ somtimes also does the growling thing and at first he would kind of sanp at whoever he was growling. At first I began to fear him but then thought if he realizes he can get his way by acting aggressive, this can only lead to more aggresion so now if he growls I repremend him by telling him no Champ that's not right in an authoritarian voice, like you would your child and if need be I grab him by his collar and make him get off the couch and bed and give him the silent treatment for a bit. It only last a few minutes cause then he stares at me with those big brown sorry eyes and I melt. But I have definetly seen a decrease in that behavior.

[JazzysMom]

Jazz used to get really growly/snarky when we moved her, esp in her sleep.
I guess it never occured to me to use treats …. I feel like that's more of a bribe in those situations.....I just told her to knock it off and picked her up in such a way that she could not bite me, and moved her. Now anyone can move her anywhere, any time and she may still "har-umph", but that's it.

We're doing the same thing with Keoki, and he's almost there. Still grumbles if my two youngest boys bug him in his sleep {to move him, etc. not just to bug him; that is NOT allowed} , so when that happens I have them {with my help} hold his neck firmly but gently in a way that does not allow biting, with a firm but calm "NO", then they pet him, talk to him {reward for stopping the noise}, and move him. He is very close, however, to not complaining at them at all.

I guess I use treats to reward new behaviors that I am training -- sit, stay, etc. But when it comes to them responding to people in an unacceptable way, I look at that differently. I don't use treats. Feels too much to me like -- "If you don't growl at me, I'll give you a treat" when what I am going for is "You do not growl at me {or any family member}, period". Besides, what if I forget the treat when I want them to move? Then what?

Growling at strangers is different, and it gets a "no", and I remove the dog. When we have people over that make them uncomfortable, I crate the dogs or let them outside when the people are in and vice versa.

Just my .02.

[Quercus]

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Well, it can be misused in that way. But the premise of the training is not bribing the dog. In the begining you may use the treat to lure the dog off the furniture...but then you train the dog to move on request, when the dog complies you reward, at first with food, and then with praise.
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Why...what's in it for the dog to not growl? I agree that ideally, we want our dogs to be cooperative enough that the would never even consider growling at us. But that isn't the way it is with a lot of dogs. And often by escalating the level of aggression by forcing a dog out of its space, or yelling, the dog's aggression gets worse instead of better. In lots of other breeds you can force a dog to do what you want...in Basenjis, it usually just makes thing worse.
If one of my dogs is complaining if I want to move him, yeah, I just carry on, and move him...but if it is a seriously dangerous growl/snap, I would be a fool to grab for the dog to shove him off. That is when you turn to training, rather than forcing.

[gbroxon]

@JazzysMom:

…. I feel like that's more of a bribe in those situations.....I just told her to knock it off and picked her up in such a way that she could not bite me, and moved her. ...

It's a reward for an "off" and a "sit," not a bribe for stopping the snarking. He's not in the middle of snarking when asked for the off/sit, so, obviously, cannot be bribed out of it.

The process you describe to not get bit (holding her neck), wouldn't work with Magnum, he sleeps very lightly.

Other than being snarky to my husband upon bedtime, Magnum has never demonstrated this snarky behavior awake or asleep, so I'm not sure what I'd do if it became a common occurrence.

[Quercus]

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You should really read that article that Robyn (yodeldogs) linked to here, by Susan Clothier. It really explains why reprimanding a nervous dog for expressing his discomfort is confusing and reinforcing for the dog. It is a natural thing for us to want to do, particularly because with kids, we immediately jump on and correct any behavior that we don't want to see...but dogs don't reason the same way humans do...and it just doesn't work the same way.
If you correct a dog enough for growling when they are nervous, they will eventually learn not to growl, and go straight for the next level of threat...they really will...and then people say 'oh, he bit the child out of the blue, with no warning'

[JazzysMom]

I don't think I ever said I used "force" or "yelled" at the dogs. What I said was, I opt not to use treats for this particular thing, and that I hold the dog in such a way that it cannot bite me {painless; just at an angle where the teeth can't reach me no matter which way the head turns}, tell it "Knock it off", lift it up and move it. It's quick and smooth. The dog finds itself standing on the floor, or in a different spot, whatever.

[nomrbddgs]

This is why I said to watch the reactions and the dog's reactions-there were probably clues before the aggression-I only know of one dog in about 25 years that had 'sudden aggression'-this was because of a brain problem. Usually the signs are there, people just don't think about it, think it's 'cute' when they're young, or just don't see it. Unless someone is very observant or trained to watch for clues most people don't see aggression until it becomes a problem. I'm not knocking anyone I'm just stating.