For Sale/Waiting List Post Rules: Read First

[tanza]

@etzbseder:

Ok, no problem. You know where I stand in my desires for a puppy. I love the fact that all the puppies and parents are taken into consideration an are planned for before breeding. It really decreases the chance of issues.

Yup… I know, I still hope that it might work out, but time will tell. We are looking at other possible studs to use.

[Alex]

We came up with the US/Canada restriction initially to protect our forum users from potential fraud which we have seen too many times happen when the seller is located overseas.

Also, since the breeder would be located far away in another country it would be quite difficult for him/her to provide support a responsible breeder should provide to the buyer located in the US/Canada.

Since the date of our initial for sale rules post we have gained a lot more international users on the forum who can buy and sell within their own region. We are open to suggestions how rules can be potentially revised to include international members.

[tanza]

There are not many that post Basenjis or pups for sale here, at least not by responsible breeders. We may announce a litter that we are planning but not that we have pups for sale. I don't think that should be any different the our member breeders overseas. Then if a Forum member is interested they can contact that person privately for more information and it is their responsibility to do the research about the breeder and things like health testing. I do not think this forum should be used to sell puppies. The few that have posted here are "in my opinion" less then responsible.

But nothing wrong with posting breeding plans, different the posting puppies for sale

[snorky998]

Pat, I have to agree with your statement of "I do not think this forum should be used to sell puppies. The few that have posted here are "in my opinion" less then responsible."

I think it would do this forum proud to have the thread be, Basenji's for Rescue, Re-homing, Fostering &/or Transport.

Just my HO.

[Alex]

snorky998, thank you for your response. We already have a whole category for Basenji Rescue.

http://www.basenjiforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61

Pat, I agree with you, we will consider the "Breeding Plans" format for those breeders who want to announce their breeding plans.

[tanza]

I think that is a good way to go, then people can announced their planned litters and the Forum doesn't become a place to just sell puppies….

[dmcarty]

I understand rescue - I have done rescue - but remember - by providing homes for these dogs who are in situations through no fault of their own - you are supporting the production of puppies from puppy mills. By promoting rescue over purchace from a reputable breeder - the PM's continue breeding because they do not care and reputable breeder stop - because we do.

There are many other breeds having this very same discussion - no easy answers but be wary of promoting rescue to the detriment of the responsibly bred - pure bred dog.

[dash]

@dmcarty:

I understand rescue - I have done rescue - but remember - by providing homes for these dogs who are in situations through no fault of their own - you are supporting the production of puppies from puppy mills. By promoting rescue over purchace from a reputable breeder - the PM's continue breeding because they do not care and reputable breeder stop - because we do.

There are many other breeds having this very same discussion - no easy answers but be wary of promoting rescue to the detriment of the responsibly bred - pure bred dog.

Are you saying these dogs should not be rescued?? That can't be right. I don't understand how rescuing dogs from a shelter means we are supporting puppy mills. I totally get the purchasing from the pet stores. That just seems a stretch.

[lvoss]

I don't think that is what Diane is saying. What she is saying is that by promoting rescues above responsibly bred dogs people inadvertently perpetuate the puppy mill cycle. These dogs end up in rescue because their breeders have no need to take responsibility for them because rescue will be there to clean up after them meanwhile responsible breeders lose good homes to rescue and breed less and less making it harder for people to find a responsible breeder to buy from and so the cycle continues.

[Quercus]

@dash:

Are you saying these dogs should not be rescued?? That can't be right. I don't understand how rescuing dogs from a shelter means we are supporting puppy mills. I totally get the purchasing from the pet stores. That just seems a stretch.

I think the idea is that so many responsible people are now being told by the media and animal rights groups that the ONLY ethical thing to do is to adopt a pet rather than purchase one. It hurts respsonsible breeders because we breed to continue the existance of a breed that we love…we need to find wonderful homes for the puppies that we can't keep. A lot of those wonderful homes are being filled by dogs who were rescued, after being given up, after they were purchased from an irresponsible breeder who didn't take the dog back when the situation they sold it into failed to be a forever home. That was a horrible sentence...but it is early here...

No one here believes that dogs shouldn't be rescued...of course they should...but it does make fewer homes for carefully bred dogs, and it forces responsible breeders to breed fewer dogs. So that equals fewer well bred, healthy basenjis out there....

[Basenjimamma]

I understand what has been said, but waht should we do? There seems to be no way to win in this one. If we rescue all the dumped, lost and unwanted B's, it fills the homes of potential pure bred buyers but if we don't rescue,more are out there on the streets. If it is even possible to states this , I would say…I think a lot of potentail buyers balk at the price for a B from some reputable breeders ( I understand the pricing, I have seen the several layouts of as to where the money goes, when you breed dogs), so therefor looking at a rescue "is more affordable" , and they get the sense of, not only did I help this poor helpless dog, but I got a nice dog for not spending a fortune..BUT if BRAT was to charge more then the rescues wouldn't go either. I think a lot of these problems stems from the ease of breeeding and selling dogs, meaning, there is no entity that controls it. If the upper management, i.e state governments or the like set certain pretty hard rules for these breeders(backyard and puppymills), maybe there would be fewer dogs left to rescue...Do I make any sense?

[dash]

@lvoss:

What she is saying is that by promoting rescues above responsibly bred dogs people inadvertently perpetuate the puppy mill cycle. These dogs end up in rescue because their breeders have no need to take responsibility for them because rescue will be there to clean up after them meanwhile responsible breeders lose good homes to rescue and breed less and less making it harder for people to find a responsible breeder to buy from and so the cycle continues.

I think this is assuming that the puppy mill or backyard breeders care what happens to their dogs once they are sold. We all agree they do not. They could care less if the dogs are rescued, euthanized, hit by car etc once they get paid. I honestly think you are giving them too much credit.

You have a valid point about losing good homes from responsible breeders. I really feel the solution is education. And as Andrea said, the media does trash breeders and encourages rescue. That is not right either way. There are pluses and minuses for both. I try not to influence someone based on my opinions and allow them to see the benefits of both sides. If I have done otherwise, I apologize.

As far as what this post was started about, I don't see any reason why someone could not post their pups for sale. I understand that may make some of you feel that they are not responsible for doing so, but ultimately, it is the purchaser's/breeder's decision to make. I also don't agree that having pups for sale in itself necessarily makes them an unresponsible breeder.

[YodelDogs]

@Basenjimamma:

If the upper management, i.e state governments or the like set certain pretty hard rules for these breeders(backyard and puppymills), maybe there would be fewer dogs left to rescue…Do I make any sense?

I remember reading something about how the overwhelming majority of AKC registered puppies came from "one time breeders", backyard breeders who never had more than one litter. BYB's typically wait until their pups are old enough to sell and put an ad in the newspaper or on the internet or maybe just a sign out in front of their house. In a large city, there may be 200 or more litters of pups advertised in the newspaper each week. How many officials would it take to go around to every single BYB to make sure they followed breeding laws? Right. It just can't be done.

In cities where breeding laws are proposed or approved, it isn't the BYBs who are affected but rather the responsible breeders since they are the ones who can easily be found. The people who are already breeding ethically, the ones who are NOT part of the pet overpopulation and homeless pets problems, are the very ones who get targetted to be harrassed.

Laws aren't the solution. Education is.

[Basenjimamma]

I agree with education being the ultimate solution, however with the way americans are today, education will not work. We tend to only listen to what we want to hear and when we hear something we don't want to hear we ignore it, and still proceed with what we were recommended NOT to do. When the decision backfires we can always "dump the dog, cat or whatever have you, in a pound somewhere and the decision is no longer ours to worry about". In Europe we don't even have this option, at least not in Sweden ( at least not when I checked last, a while back) It is called accountability..Very few average people living in America know what accountability is..there is always somebody there to take care of messes being made.
I wish there was a way to not have so many dogs roaming the streets, and being put down on a daily basis, it is absolutely heart breaking, education will help some, but it won't stop it. In my honest, humble opinion.