@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
What does it mean to add genes?
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As Lisa Voss put it, what is a "real basenji"?, circling back to her original post. That question has yet to be answered satisfactorily.
There certainly are myriad opinions as to what is a "real basenji", and what is a "basenji -type" dog, and from what regions in Africa dogs should be imported for incorporation into the breed we call the Basenji.
Thanks Lisa CA for the excellent resources about the necessity of maintaining a robust vigorous breeding population. The opportunity to hear Dr. Sponenberg talk at the 2012 BCOA Nationals in Gettysburg PA is just one more exciting reason to attend!
Katy Scott
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This is a fascinating discussion! (Love the horse references, although I would contest the idea that anything of Sheila Varian's is only good for "pretty"! She bred and trained athletes…...she thought Bay el Bey could easily have been an open reining horse, had she gone that way with him, and his get through some of his sons have done well in dressage, among other things)
The trouble with asking "what is a Basenji" (or any other breed) is that we tend to judge by what we see. Bench showing requires that. The breeders who are into lure coursing, and breeding for that ability, or the few who actually hunt with their dogs, might have a different idea of the "ideal" Basenji, based on performance. If the animals are not tested for ability in some way, it is too easy to lose those qualities that defined the breed in the first place......and made him useful.
The Border Collie people who breed herding dogs don't give a rat's patootie what the dog looks like, as long as he can herd......hence their reluctance to allow the breed to be CKC registered, because they simply do not want them bred for "pretty" at the expense of their working ability.
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The trouble with asking "what is a Basenji" (or any other breed) is that we tend to judge by what we see. Bench showing requires that. The breeders who are into lure coursing, and breeding for that ability, or the few who actually hunt with their dogs, might have a different idea of the "ideal" Basenji, based on performance. If the animals are not tested for ability in some way, it is too easy to lose those qualities that defined the breed in the first place…...and made him useful.
People that course do not have a different idea about conformation and having a coursing dog. All of mine are Dual Champions (Conformation and Coursing). As they say, Form follows Function. It they are properly constructed they can run and in fact if they are not properly constructed your will have issues running them long term. So I disagree that people "breed" for coursing dogs are different then people that breed for conformation. Maybe for "instinct" in course/hunting, but should not be anything different in conformation. The qualities that are in the standard for conformation support the performance aspect of the breed.
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People that course do not have a different idea about conformation and having a coursing dog. All of mine are Dual Champions (Conformation and Coursing). As they say, Form follows Function. It they are properly constructed they can run and in fact if they are not properly constructed your will have issues running them long term. So I disagree that people "breed" for coursing dogs are different then people that breed for conformation. Maybe for "instinct" in course/hunting, but should not be anything different in conformation. The qualities that are in the standard for conformation support the performance aspect of the breed.
Yes, and one hopes it will remain that way! Unfortunately, the experience in other breeds has been that although specified standards may not change, the way in which judges interpret them may follow the "style" that is currently in vogue, to the determent of the breed.
I've seen this in horses as well as dogs (dainty footed, overly muscular Quarterhorses, Arabs bred for an extremely flat croup, Thoroughbreds dominated by a popular line with poor hoof structure…..undoubtedly fast, but they break down young, etc.) I'm sure most dog people are aware of the extremes in dog breeds that have strayed too far from their original purpose. I wouldn't be too quick to say it can't happen in Basenjis.
Perhaps it would be good to restrict breeding stock to those who actually can demonstrate their ability as athletes, e.g. as is done in Dutch Warmblood horses? I am thinking such a criteria would improve a lot of dog breeds, and safeguard the ones that are still sound. I know it is unlikely to ever happen, but one can dream....
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I am also really enjoying this topic and would like to agree with LVoss in her posts. But I might also like to add that the form follows function argument has always thrown me a bit. Last time I checked basenjis in Africa aren't found chasing plastic bags. I also have watched my dogs hunt and see they are great at flushing bunnies, hunting in under brush for mice, digging out moles and snagging birds mid air, I have not seen any of my dogs hunt my property by running game down in open fields, for one thing most game is smarter than that. The means in which my dogs do successfully hunt is appropriate for their structure and size.
Watching lure coursing I see larger longer leg males faster on the straight stretch while smaller agile bitches lower to the ground catch up on the corners. So using lure coursing as a identifier of function could lead to one saying longer leg dogs are faster, as well as longer backed, yet shorter legged shorter backed dogs corner better that is a slippery slope.
Personally I have seen a German short hair pointer run the lure course at my place and he was out in front of the whippet in the straight stretch, but the whippet caught him in the corner. I still wouldn't consider the GSP a whippet or basenji even though he loved coursing.
I think we have to keep in mind the standard and the purpose behind the standard and that is also why I appreciate coursing dogs should follow standards. I have seen field golden retrievers and they look nothing like ring goldens, how sad it would be if we allowed our standard to be altered from its original intent, neither dog should dictate a change in standard alone.
I believe our standard allows for differences and for actual "function" as it should be. I think a dog being considered basenji because of his coursing ability is a risky gamble. I also think we need to consider seeing photos of all dogs within an area whenever possible because what appears to be "basenji" like could produce something very different. I have friends who were in Peace corp that both had basenjis while in the Congo. One dog that was brought back is slightly larger and although lets out a single bark she also yodels, however she has a very clear distinct ridge down her back. Her head looks very much like a ridge back head with upright ears. She was a street dog and how she was produced a mystery. Other friends had a boy that looked very much like our basenjis however he was out of a litter of three pups and all pups had been given to Peace corp workers, the mother was also seen. Having had photos of the dogs in the village that dog came from would further support the "basenji" type coming out of the area.
I think the idea of sticking as closely as possible to our standard and building a strong line with imports as some have is the important thing to keep an eye on. I think there is nothing wrong with being selective about the dogs we allow into the stud book, maybe we should have considered that when deciding to vote on a group as a whole instead of an individual dog.
Just my two cents. -
For Clay and whomever else has Sponenberg's Managing Breeds for a Secure Future on their wish list, I checked amazon.com and it is not currently available through them since it is out of print. But it looks like you can get a copy from the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy at http://www.albc-usa.org/store/store-conservation.php
Enjoy!
Katy Scott
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I agree with you Therese regarding your post and the lure coursing and it being risky. My point was just that my dogs course and are conformation champions, so I have never had to alter my breeding program.
Like you have have seen a number of different breeds that course quite nicely, proven these days by the new AKC All Breed coursing
As far as the form follow function, as you noted our standard is for function, so if they are bred to the standard they have the form for performance
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@Therese:
Watching lure coursing I see larger longer leg males faster on the straight stretch while smaller agile bitches lower to the ground catch up on the corners. So using lure coursing as a identifier of function could lead to one saying longer leg dogs are faster, as well as longer backed, yet shorter legged shorter backed dogs corner better that is a slippery slope.
No question you can go off type very quickly if ability to course is your only criteria. I bought my second Basenji from a breeder who was also a judge and who wrote a book about the breed. He mentioned that one Basenji he bred was a little long backed, a bit high in the hindquarters, and the fastest dog he had ever bred…...but was not an animal you wanted to use as a stud, as he was off type. But he would have made a hell of a lure courser!
My point was that you need balance. If your only criteria is what the judges put up in the breed ring, you are relying solely on the picture presented, which may not give an accurate idea of either athletic ability or temperament. (and may also be subject to the current fad.....it doesn't take much to start the process of emphasizing one trait at the expense of others). Some dogs of very questionable temperament can avoid the cardinal sin of biting the judge, and may even take BIS, but do you really want to breed from them if you can't trust them around your family?
In my opinion breeders need to consider all aspects of the dog before considering him or her as a breeding animal, and I have no doubt the best breeders do, but there will always be those who don't, either because they don't care, or because they are "stable blind", as we say in the horse business.
It would be useful to have some sort of oversight that tests more than just the superficial appearance of the animal, and I for one would welcome some measurable test of both athletic ability and temperament for breeding animals (and enough of their offspring to see if it was being passed on)
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eeeefarm, sorry don't know what to call you. It's interesting you bring up termperament. At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I completely agree that using one criteria is not the best approach but how to test these dogs for athletic function is tricky, my best rabbit hunter that has to date taken out more wild rabbits at my house than all my dogs combined won't lure course to save her life. Yet she has produced a daughter that is ranked #1 in AKC coursing right now.
I understand it's tough to judge the individual dog, that's why I would like to see more information about where the dogs came from and what the dogs within the same village look like as added info.
Someone posted to this forum just today about a dog named Cash that is a basenji mix, he looks a bit like photos I have seen of dogs in villages that have been shared with us from trips to Africa. Here we were quick to say "mix" I would like to see us consider what may be in the mix with imports a bit more.
I cared for a litter of pups for a humane society, mom was not well and pups had a better chance not being in a shelter setting, pups were all four black/white looked like a cross between lab/border collie/****ers. I still laugh at all the vets that told us there was absolutely no hound in these pups, we would always wait to bring mom in, she was a blood hound black/red, small but likely pure bred. She delivered pups that looked nothing like her, but I wonder what they would have produced if bred to a blood hound?
I would just like us to see all the info we can on the imports we approve and like you not just rely on what wins in the ring to judge how these dogs look, heaven knows that doesn't always match our standard even though it should.
Therese -
Therese wrote…I would just like us to see all the info we can on the imports we approve and like you not just rely on what wins in the ring to judge how these dogs look, heaven knows that doesn't always match our standard even though it should.
ThereseYes, I do agree. Get what testing done we can, including color and see what these new imports produce. I don't think an ETHICAL basenji breeder would try to sell the membership on an import that throws puppies who look like bulldogs. Again, just my rescue opinion. We will always have those who try to make a name for themselves over the quality of the dogs they have..but again, haven't we had that already in some show breeders?
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@Therese:
eeeefarm, sorry don't know what to call you.
eeee farm is my farm name….."for ease" (that's a joke, folks). I'm Shirley.
It's interesting you bring up termperament. At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I am always amused when people say the "original" dogs had poor temperaments. My first Basenji (1966) had the best temperament of any I've owned!
I cared for a litter of pups for a humane society, mom was not well and pups had a better chance not being in a shelter setting, pups were all four black/white looked like a cross between lab/border collie/****ers. I still laugh at all the vets that told us there was absolutely no hound in these pups, we would always wait to bring mom in, she was a blood hound black/red, small but likely pure bred. She delivered pups that looked nothing like her, but I wonder what they would have produced if bred to a blood hound?
I got a pup from a GSD (purebred)/husky (unregistered stray) litter that looked pretty much like a husky, as did half the litter. The rest could have passed for purebred GSDs. (and no, the bitch was not exposed to multiple dogs). I had hoped for a good farm dog, but after he flunked at that he turned out to be a marvelous pet for my sister's kids. But especially with a mix you just never know! I have seen some pretty odd things happen with horses, as well….
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Coursing ability is not an indication of whether or not a dog is a basenji. AKC and UKC are both making good money offering all breed coursing ability tests. For most of the breeds you see running you can easily see that they run differently than the sighthounds but others especially the terriers can be just as keen and awfully fast.
Personally, I think any breeding program that relies on only 1 venue to test and evaluate breeding stock is not going to "see" the whole dog. The more I do with my dogs, the more I see different things in each of them.
To bring this back around to the topic of this thread, success in a performance venue does not make a dog a basenji. I will say again, I think people need to look at old publications with lots of pics of basenjis of the past to see what we had, what we have lost, and what we have never had before we can even begin really talking about "what is a basenji" because what we see today is not the full spectrum of what was basenji and if that is the expectation people will be disappointed but not everything coming back from Africa is basenji.
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Coursing ability is not an indication of whether or not a dog is a basenji.
Of course (no pun intended!] it's not, but it is a handy way to determine athletic ability. Field trials would be a better one, as that is much closer to the way the breed was originally used, but most people don't train their dogs for that. A Basenji is a beautiful athlete. Nobody is saying any dog that can course or hunt is a Basenji, but a dog that has the phenotype of a Basenji should also display the athletic ability, IMHO.
Personally, I think any breeding program that relies on only 1 venue to test and evaluate breeding stock is not going to "see" the whole dog. The more I do with my dogs, the more I see different things in each of them.
I agree.
To bring this back around to the topic of this thread, success in a performance venue does not make a dog a basenji. I will say again, I think people need to look at old publications with lots of pics of basenjis of the past to see what we had, what we have lost, and what we have never had before we can even begin really talking about "what is a basenji" because what we see today is not the full spectrum of what was basenji and if that is the expectation people will be disappointed but not everything coming back from Africa is basenji.
I've seen quite a few pictures, and I wonder if you think any of the original dogs would win in today's show ring? That may be the best measure of how much we have lost, or how much we have changed the breed…..
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@Therese:
At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I understand it's tough to judge the individual dog, that's why I would like to see more information about where the dogs came from and what the dogs within the same village look like as added info.
Personally I will take today's temperaments.
And I fully agree that we should be looking at the entire picture went evaluating additions to the stud book. Were they come from and what other dogs in the village look like would be great information to have before just voting a dog (or group of dogs) into the stub books. And add to that, there have been ones brought back that were not even put up for evaluation because they fit the standard way less then some of the others. So consider this, if you brought back 6 dogs, 3 were put up for evaluation, 3 were not because they were less of breed type then the 3 that were, what does that say about the prospects of breeding them? What it the chance you will get more of the ones that have very little breed type?
Many of you will remember that the BCOSW raised a litter (and one of our members here has one of the offspring) of pups that were Basenji and ??, but the guess was Beagle mix. A few of those pups could have passed really easily as purebreds, but of poor quality. As I remember there was one pup in that litter that could have passed for a Lab puppy….Clearly they were mixes.
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BCOSW raised a litter a few years ago too where the dam was basenji and the sire was something else. Pictures of the offspring were posted on another group and it was striking to see the variation in the offspring from basenji-like to not-really basenji-like at all.
That one set of images really drove home the point to me that we should not get our native stock from areas that have other kinds of dogs. So for me, one requirement to call a dog from Africa a "basenji" is that it needs to come from a sufficiently isolated area. Similar to what others have said, I now really want to know more about the population of dogs that were living around the applicants to the stud book. Of course, that info is not required for the applicants to provide so that may require some digging for info on my part to figure out.
It would be nice to get permission to post the pics of that litter I was referring to, it would be very useful to the discussion.
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Clay, you could ask Wanda, I think it was she that posted them for that other discussion. And yes, that is the litter I was talking about. One of our members here has one of those pups. For some reason I remember the sire as being a Beagle mix.
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Lol, I thought you were talking about southern California. I'll ask Wanda. That litter was before my time in the club so I don't know as much of the details other than seeing some of the offspring.
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Pat wrote..
And I fully agree that we should be looking at the entire picture went evaluating additions to the stud book. Were they come from and what other dogs in the village look like would be great information to have before just voting a dog (or group of dogs) into the stub books. And add to that, there have been ones brought back that were not even put up for evaluation because they fit the standard way less then some of the others. So consider this, if you brought back 6 dogs, 3 were put up for evaluation, 3 were not because they were less of breed type then the 3 that were, what does that say about the prospects of breeding them? What it the chance you will get more of the ones that have very little breed type?
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Pat, It could be that those who were not put up would not help improve the basenji breed as a whole. So, an ethical person, taking information from many long term breeders, would listen and say, A B C look good, but D E F, not so much.
Why would an ethical person say, I am putting them all up? Wouldn't they say, I will put up the ones who will do what we want, put new genes into the basenji lines?
I don't see it as all or nothing. I see it as take the best dogs you can get from the Congo and see if they can be accepted. The ones who are not the quality you want, make them pets.
Heavens, don't breeders to that with every litter they have? Eval them and say, these are pets, these are show?? -
But if A, B, C, D, E, F all come from the same small region or even the same village then if the traits that bother you are ones that suggest they are not basenjis then the likelihood is that though A, B, and C may have traits similar to basenjis they are probably not pure basenjis because evidence of mixing is present in D, E, and F.
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But if A, B, C, D, E, F all come from the same small region or even the same village then if the traits that bother you are ones that suggest they are not basenjis then the likelihood is that though A, B, and C may have traits similar to basenjis they are probably not pure basenjis because evidence of mixing is present in D, E, and F.
The question to me would be, are the dogs not being put up because they have traits that indicate that they are not Basenjis, or are they being held back because of traits that are not indicative of impurity, but might make them harder to get voted in?
Keep in mind, all dogs have to be voted in, they get voted in in blocks, and a bunch of votes against one dog could keep all of that group out. So there is a VERY powerful disincentive against people putting up dogs with obvious but minor faults, like slightly off colors, very loopy tails - I heard people complaining against more than one dog in more than one importation because it didn't have enough white (they had minimal Irish white, which is entirely in the typical range.) I'd raise an eyebrow at solids, but not at limited Irish.
Those sorts of things are not traits that suggest they aren't purebred. The original founders came from groups where, as VTW discusses, there would be both more and less typey dogs.
That said, Sponenberg specifically lists history as an important thing to consider in evaluating animals for inclusion in a stud book, and discusses looking at the source population as a whole when evaluating sources. You'd probably enjoy reading his examples of the process.
