@senjisilly just now saw your reply. Thanks for the pedigree website. I knew about it and it’s a great resource.
What does it mean to add genes?
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Jo, my main question goes to this general statement. Practically, do these "areas not already represented by current founders" still exist and if so, are they accessible and relatively "un-compromised" (for lack of a better word) by dogs that may represent other areas in the EF biomes or elsewhere.
The South Sudan is newly accessible (although I don't know of any Basenji person who has gone yet) and is historically a major home of Basenjis. I have heard multiple people interested in going there - I do not know if a trip is planned yet but I would be surprised if it did not happen.
However, in bringing in new dogs, you do NOT want to avoid areas already represented by current founders. Unless you've already gotten 100-200 founders well represented in the gene pool, the area is likely to include very significant untapped genetic diversity. Additional genetic diversity is likely even if we had that many founders. We still have, last I checked, less than 50. And that genetic diversity is highly correlated with healthy long-term survival of a breed.
The principle used to preserve rare and land race breeds is basically "include as much genetic material that is of that breed as you can".
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Thanks, I realize this all depends on perspective. It would be beneficial IMO if "significant impact to the breed" could be dimensioned in a more quantitative way. We seem to have ways to demonstrate "significant negative impacts" such as with the discussions of popular sires and their disproportionate contributions to the gene pool but "positive impacts" seems to be more nebulous to demonstrate.
Significant impact isn't a quantitative measure. It's a qualititative one. It varies depending on your values, your breeding program, and what you are selecting for. Major questions are usually, which population, and what qualities do you consider significant.
Giving horse examples (because they are likelier to keep me out of trouble) - Nazeer has a significant impact on the Arabian class A halter population, as does El Shaklan, Bey El Bey, and Padron.
They have no significant influence on the CMK population (very popular as endurance, family, riding, and dressage horses.) You'll occasionally see a distant descendent of Nazeer via Ralvon Elijah, who is 90-odd percent Crabbet otherwise, but that's about it. On the other hand, Aurab, who you don't see a lot of in pedigrees in the Class A halter ring, is a major influence on Arabian dressage horses and a significant force in CMK pedigrees.
For Basenjis (treading carefully here), the new imports are being widely used, in significant percentages of pedigree (not once and out) in show dogs in my area and in other areas that I know. This includes dogs that are top Honor Roll producers (see previously mentioned #3 Brood Bitch of all time, dam of at least one BIS winner and a boatload of champions, who is about 40% Avongara), National Specialty Award of Merit winners, all-breed Best in show winners, and top performance competitors. The Honor Roll producers include at least a couple of Avongaras, dogs that I frequently see in pedigrees.
So I'm not sure I "get" the idea that the earlier imports have not been well-used. In general, I see better, not worse, overall conformation with full and part Afs - I may be seeing results of more successful selection, but the source dogs are the same. In particular, Afs and Af blends I see tend to have better substance. They avoid extremely upright and forward shoulders too common in domestics. All I have seen have better musculature than average.
The usage I am seeing is not "one and out" breeding as much as careful and ongoing blending over multiple generations.
The Avongaras are significant to these programs, and these breeders feel they are getting better dogs through them. They are winning enough, and having enough other people to use their dogs, that their impact on the overall breed is substantial.
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The usage I am seeing is not "one and out" breeding as much as careful and ongoing blending over multiple generations.
The Avongaras are significant to these programs, and these breeders feel they are getting better dogs through them. They are winning enough, and having enough other people to use their dogs, that their impact on the overall breed is substantial.
You're talking about native stock that people wanted to use and my perception is that you won't get much argument there. If people are using them regularly then they have significant value and could have impact to the breed as a whole. Going back to the original question at the beginning of the thread (and granted it started as a continuation of another thread), I believe the context of "one and out" comments were directed more to potential introduction of native stock of "lower quality" which do not have as much general appeal to breeders. If they have so many faults that you would have to do a "one and out" to compensate to get their "new genes" then what's the point? I think it all gets back to what individual breeders consider a "basenji" to be, it appears there is a wide range of perspective particularly when talking about native stock.
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You're talking about native stock that people wanted to use and my perception is that you won't get much argument there. If people are using them regularly then they have significant value and could have impact to the breed as a whole. Going back to the original question at the beginning of the thread (and granted it started as a continuation of another thread), I believe the context of "one and out" comments were directed more to potential introduction of native stock of "lower quality" which do not have as much general appeal to breeders. If they have so many faults that you would have to do a "one and out" to compensate to get their "new genes" then what's the point? I think it all gets back to what individual breeders consider a "basenji" to be, it appears there is a wide range of perspective particularly when talking about native stock.
The problem with the original question, to me, is that the dogs to date used for "one and out", to get brindle, are the exact same native stock that other people wanted to use, and have used very successfully. With the exception of first generation pups from a fourth import and first generation from Tiger in the 60's, all brindle prior to the 2006 stud book openings was from Gangura, Diagba, and Mbliki.
All three have been successfully incorporated into ongoing breeding programs. One and out is a choice, not a condemnation of the dog's potential.
What I've seen in watching breeding programs my whole life, of a variety of domestic species, is that animals value as breeding stock varies according to who is using them and what they're using them for.
My upbringing was replete with stories of horses that were seen as no value by some, but turned out to be immensely valuable in breeding programs when they caught the eye of the right breeder. See Bazy Tankersley's discussions of *Sulejman, many of Lady Wentworth's discussions of many varied horses, the history of the Davenports, etc, etc. - also see Spencer Borden's writings on the Arabian in the US, etc.
Some rather obscure or even ordinary horses turned out to be spectacularly valuable in the breeding shed - and some horses with specific faults (Bazy's writings on using *Ranix comes to mind) were brilliant sires when used correctly. *Count Dorsaz was the better horse, and more important in her program - but she got things from *Ranix that were invaluable - e.g. the lovely Canadian Beau - and she has repeatedly emphasized how important *Ranix was to her program.
In Avongaras, some of the more ordinary individuals have been exceptional producers. I don't think anyone would have pegged Gangura as the star of his importation, but he turned out to be quite a good sire - look at his full Af son, Avongara Zindiko of Brushy Run - there is no question what breed Zee is, and no question that he is an outstanding individual of that breed.
Excluding Gangura, because he "wasn't pretty enough", would have been a horrible mistake, and would have cost us many very, very good dogs.
The criteria is not "an individual that I would use." There are tons of champions, including Best in Show winners, that I would not use if you gave them to me. I have a goal and I am interested in dogs that help me achieve that goal.
The criteria IMHO is "is this individual of this breed, and of sufficient interest to be used by someone." If they've put them forward, it appears that the answer is yes to the latter question.
Gorgeous individuals may or may not be good producers. Ordinary individuals can be very, very good producers, particularly when used well.
My excluding a dog because it isn't my cup of tea, although I believe it to be a Basenji, to me is equivalent to my saying, if I don't want to use it, you can't either.
Imagine if I tried that with domestics!
I do not think I am so smart as to be able to know every way every dog can be usefully incorporated into a breeding program, and I honestly don't think anyone else is capable of that either.
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The original post which was by me was not abut "in and then out for a color", it was about bringing in dogs that don't give you the feeling, "this is a basenji" for the sake of diversity and then breeding to them once and then out because they really do nothing for you.
I think the main criteria should be is it a basenji. That is the real issue though, what is a "real basenji". I think that Dr Jo gave some really good information about the region where basenjis live. Something that seems to be overlooked quite often.
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The original post which was by me was not abut "in and then out for a color", it was about bringing in dogs that don't give you the feeling, "this is a basenji" for the sake of diversity and then breeding to them once and then out because they really do nothing for you.
I think the main criteria should be is it a basenji. That is the real issue though, what is a "real basenji". I think that Dr Jo gave some really good information about the region where basenjis live. Something that seems to be overlooked quite often.
Well put lvoss. I agree.
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As Lisa Voss put it, what is a "real basenji"?, circling back to her original post. That question has yet to be answered satisfactorily.
There certainly are myriad opinions as to what is a "real basenji", and what is a "basenji -type" dog, and from what regions in Africa dogs should be imported for incorporation into the breed we call the Basenji.
Thanks Lisa CA for the excellent resources about the necessity of maintaining a robust vigorous breeding population. The opportunity to hear Dr. Sponenberg talk at the 2012 BCOA Nationals in Gettysburg PA is just one more exciting reason to attend!
Katy Scott
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This is a fascinating discussion! (Love the horse references, although I would contest the idea that anything of Sheila Varian's is only good for "pretty"! She bred and trained athletes…...she thought Bay el Bey could easily have been an open reining horse, had she gone that way with him, and his get through some of his sons have done well in dressage, among other things)
The trouble with asking "what is a Basenji" (or any other breed) is that we tend to judge by what we see. Bench showing requires that. The breeders who are into lure coursing, and breeding for that ability, or the few who actually hunt with their dogs, might have a different idea of the "ideal" Basenji, based on performance. If the animals are not tested for ability in some way, it is too easy to lose those qualities that defined the breed in the first place......and made him useful.
The Border Collie people who breed herding dogs don't give a rat's patootie what the dog looks like, as long as he can herd......hence their reluctance to allow the breed to be CKC registered, because they simply do not want them bred for "pretty" at the expense of their working ability.
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The trouble with asking "what is a Basenji" (or any other breed) is that we tend to judge by what we see. Bench showing requires that. The breeders who are into lure coursing, and breeding for that ability, or the few who actually hunt with their dogs, might have a different idea of the "ideal" Basenji, based on performance. If the animals are not tested for ability in some way, it is too easy to lose those qualities that defined the breed in the first place…...and made him useful.
People that course do not have a different idea about conformation and having a coursing dog. All of mine are Dual Champions (Conformation and Coursing). As they say, Form follows Function. It they are properly constructed they can run and in fact if they are not properly constructed your will have issues running them long term. So I disagree that people "breed" for coursing dogs are different then people that breed for conformation. Maybe for "instinct" in course/hunting, but should not be anything different in conformation. The qualities that are in the standard for conformation support the performance aspect of the breed.
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People that course do not have a different idea about conformation and having a coursing dog. All of mine are Dual Champions (Conformation and Coursing). As they say, Form follows Function. It they are properly constructed they can run and in fact if they are not properly constructed your will have issues running them long term. So I disagree that people "breed" for coursing dogs are different then people that breed for conformation. Maybe for "instinct" in course/hunting, but should not be anything different in conformation. The qualities that are in the standard for conformation support the performance aspect of the breed.
Yes, and one hopes it will remain that way! Unfortunately, the experience in other breeds has been that although specified standards may not change, the way in which judges interpret them may follow the "style" that is currently in vogue, to the determent of the breed.
I've seen this in horses as well as dogs (dainty footed, overly muscular Quarterhorses, Arabs bred for an extremely flat croup, Thoroughbreds dominated by a popular line with poor hoof structure…..undoubtedly fast, but they break down young, etc.) I'm sure most dog people are aware of the extremes in dog breeds that have strayed too far from their original purpose. I wouldn't be too quick to say it can't happen in Basenjis.
Perhaps it would be good to restrict breeding stock to those who actually can demonstrate their ability as athletes, e.g. as is done in Dutch Warmblood horses? I am thinking such a criteria would improve a lot of dog breeds, and safeguard the ones that are still sound. I know it is unlikely to ever happen, but one can dream....
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I am also really enjoying this topic and would like to agree with LVoss in her posts. But I might also like to add that the form follows function argument has always thrown me a bit. Last time I checked basenjis in Africa aren't found chasing plastic bags. I also have watched my dogs hunt and see they are great at flushing bunnies, hunting in under brush for mice, digging out moles and snagging birds mid air, I have not seen any of my dogs hunt my property by running game down in open fields, for one thing most game is smarter than that. The means in which my dogs do successfully hunt is appropriate for their structure and size.
Watching lure coursing I see larger longer leg males faster on the straight stretch while smaller agile bitches lower to the ground catch up on the corners. So using lure coursing as a identifier of function could lead to one saying longer leg dogs are faster, as well as longer backed, yet shorter legged shorter backed dogs corner better that is a slippery slope.
Personally I have seen a German short hair pointer run the lure course at my place and he was out in front of the whippet in the straight stretch, but the whippet caught him in the corner. I still wouldn't consider the GSP a whippet or basenji even though he loved coursing.
I think we have to keep in mind the standard and the purpose behind the standard and that is also why I appreciate coursing dogs should follow standards. I have seen field golden retrievers and they look nothing like ring goldens, how sad it would be if we allowed our standard to be altered from its original intent, neither dog should dictate a change in standard alone.
I believe our standard allows for differences and for actual "function" as it should be. I think a dog being considered basenji because of his coursing ability is a risky gamble. I also think we need to consider seeing photos of all dogs within an area whenever possible because what appears to be "basenji" like could produce something very different. I have friends who were in Peace corp that both had basenjis while in the Congo. One dog that was brought back is slightly larger and although lets out a single bark she also yodels, however she has a very clear distinct ridge down her back. Her head looks very much like a ridge back head with upright ears. She was a street dog and how she was produced a mystery. Other friends had a boy that looked very much like our basenjis however he was out of a litter of three pups and all pups had been given to Peace corp workers, the mother was also seen. Having had photos of the dogs in the village that dog came from would further support the "basenji" type coming out of the area.
I think the idea of sticking as closely as possible to our standard and building a strong line with imports as some have is the important thing to keep an eye on. I think there is nothing wrong with being selective about the dogs we allow into the stud book, maybe we should have considered that when deciding to vote on a group as a whole instead of an individual dog.
Just my two cents. -
For Clay and whomever else has Sponenberg's Managing Breeds for a Secure Future on their wish list, I checked amazon.com and it is not currently available through them since it is out of print. But it looks like you can get a copy from the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy at http://www.albc-usa.org/store/store-conservation.php
Enjoy!
Katy Scott
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I agree with you Therese regarding your post and the lure coursing and it being risky. My point was just that my dogs course and are conformation champions, so I have never had to alter my breeding program.
Like you have have seen a number of different breeds that course quite nicely, proven these days by the new AKC All Breed coursing
As far as the form follow function, as you noted our standard is for function, so if they are bred to the standard they have the form for performance
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@Therese:
Watching lure coursing I see larger longer leg males faster on the straight stretch while smaller agile bitches lower to the ground catch up on the corners. So using lure coursing as a identifier of function could lead to one saying longer leg dogs are faster, as well as longer backed, yet shorter legged shorter backed dogs corner better that is a slippery slope.
No question you can go off type very quickly if ability to course is your only criteria. I bought my second Basenji from a breeder who was also a judge and who wrote a book about the breed. He mentioned that one Basenji he bred was a little long backed, a bit high in the hindquarters, and the fastest dog he had ever bred…...but was not an animal you wanted to use as a stud, as he was off type. But he would have made a hell of a lure courser!
My point was that you need balance. If your only criteria is what the judges put up in the breed ring, you are relying solely on the picture presented, which may not give an accurate idea of either athletic ability or temperament. (and may also be subject to the current fad.....it doesn't take much to start the process of emphasizing one trait at the expense of others). Some dogs of very questionable temperament can avoid the cardinal sin of biting the judge, and may even take BIS, but do you really want to breed from them if you can't trust them around your family?
In my opinion breeders need to consider all aspects of the dog before considering him or her as a breeding animal, and I have no doubt the best breeders do, but there will always be those who don't, either because they don't care, or because they are "stable blind", as we say in the horse business.
It would be useful to have some sort of oversight that tests more than just the superficial appearance of the animal, and I for one would welcome some measurable test of both athletic ability and temperament for breeding animals (and enough of their offspring to see if it was being passed on)
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eeeefarm, sorry don't know what to call you. It's interesting you bring up termperament. At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I completely agree that using one criteria is not the best approach but how to test these dogs for athletic function is tricky, my best rabbit hunter that has to date taken out more wild rabbits at my house than all my dogs combined won't lure course to save her life. Yet she has produced a daughter that is ranked #1 in AKC coursing right now.
I understand it's tough to judge the individual dog, that's why I would like to see more information about where the dogs came from and what the dogs within the same village look like as added info.
Someone posted to this forum just today about a dog named Cash that is a basenji mix, he looks a bit like photos I have seen of dogs in villages that have been shared with us from trips to Africa. Here we were quick to say "mix" I would like to see us consider what may be in the mix with imports a bit more.
I cared for a litter of pups for a humane society, mom was not well and pups had a better chance not being in a shelter setting, pups were all four black/white looked like a cross between lab/border collie/****ers. I still laugh at all the vets that told us there was absolutely no hound in these pups, we would always wait to bring mom in, she was a blood hound black/red, small but likely pure bred. She delivered pups that looked nothing like her, but I wonder what they would have produced if bred to a blood hound?
I would just like us to see all the info we can on the imports we approve and like you not just rely on what wins in the ring to judge how these dogs look, heaven knows that doesn't always match our standard even though it should.
Therese -
Therese wrote…I would just like us to see all the info we can on the imports we approve and like you not just rely on what wins in the ring to judge how these dogs look, heaven knows that doesn't always match our standard even though it should.
ThereseYes, I do agree. Get what testing done we can, including color and see what these new imports produce. I don't think an ETHICAL basenji breeder would try to sell the membership on an import that throws puppies who look like bulldogs. Again, just my rescue opinion. We will always have those who try to make a name for themselves over the quality of the dogs they have..but again, haven't we had that already in some show breeders?
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@Therese:
eeeefarm, sorry don't know what to call you.
eeee farm is my farm name….."for ease" (that's a joke, folks). I'm Shirley.
It's interesting you bring up termperament. At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I am always amused when people say the "original" dogs had poor temperaments. My first Basenji (1966) had the best temperament of any I've owned!
I cared for a litter of pups for a humane society, mom was not well and pups had a better chance not being in a shelter setting, pups were all four black/white looked like a cross between lab/border collie/****ers. I still laugh at all the vets that told us there was absolutely no hound in these pups, we would always wait to bring mom in, she was a blood hound black/red, small but likely pure bred. She delivered pups that looked nothing like her, but I wonder what they would have produced if bred to a blood hound?
I got a pup from a GSD (purebred)/husky (unregistered stray) litter that looked pretty much like a husky, as did half the litter. The rest could have passed for purebred GSDs. (and no, the bitch was not exposed to multiple dogs). I had hoped for a good farm dog, but after he flunked at that he turned out to be a marvelous pet for my sister's kids. But especially with a mix you just never know! I have seen some pretty odd things happen with horses, as well….
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Coursing ability is not an indication of whether or not a dog is a basenji. AKC and UKC are both making good money offering all breed coursing ability tests. For most of the breeds you see running you can easily see that they run differently than the sighthounds but others especially the terriers can be just as keen and awfully fast.
Personally, I think any breeding program that relies on only 1 venue to test and evaluate breeding stock is not going to "see" the whole dog. The more I do with my dogs, the more I see different things in each of them.
To bring this back around to the topic of this thread, success in a performance venue does not make a dog a basenji. I will say again, I think people need to look at old publications with lots of pics of basenjis of the past to see what we had, what we have lost, and what we have never had before we can even begin really talking about "what is a basenji" because what we see today is not the full spectrum of what was basenji and if that is the expectation people will be disappointed but not everything coming back from Africa is basenji.
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Coursing ability is not an indication of whether or not a dog is a basenji.
Of course (no pun intended!] it's not, but it is a handy way to determine athletic ability. Field trials would be a better one, as that is much closer to the way the breed was originally used, but most people don't train their dogs for that. A Basenji is a beautiful athlete. Nobody is saying any dog that can course or hunt is a Basenji, but a dog that has the phenotype of a Basenji should also display the athletic ability, IMHO.
Personally, I think any breeding program that relies on only 1 venue to test and evaluate breeding stock is not going to "see" the whole dog. The more I do with my dogs, the more I see different things in each of them.
I agree.
To bring this back around to the topic of this thread, success in a performance venue does not make a dog a basenji. I will say again, I think people need to look at old publications with lots of pics of basenjis of the past to see what we had, what we have lost, and what we have never had before we can even begin really talking about "what is a basenji" because what we see today is not the full spectrum of what was basenji and if that is the expectation people will be disappointed but not everything coming back from Africa is basenji.
I've seen quite a few pictures, and I wonder if you think any of the original dogs would win in today's show ring? That may be the best measure of how much we have lost, or how much we have changed the breed…..
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@Therese:
At a recent specialty here in the PNW a judge when discussing her choices in the ring told a large group at our banquet we are breeding dogs that are "too easy" to live with. She is a breeder judge (long time) and said we are breeding away from the original temperament of the breed by breeding the type of temperaments she was seeing. The dogs I showed her as well as the dog she gave the breed to are confident, curious and outgoing and yes pretty easy to live with.
I understand it's tough to judge the individual dog, that's why I would like to see more information about where the dogs came from and what the dogs within the same village look like as added info.
Personally I will take today's temperaments.
And I fully agree that we should be looking at the entire picture went evaluating additions to the stud book. Were they come from and what other dogs in the village look like would be great information to have before just voting a dog (or group of dogs) into the stub books. And add to that, there have been ones brought back that were not even put up for evaluation because they fit the standard way less then some of the others. So consider this, if you brought back 6 dogs, 3 were put up for evaluation, 3 were not because they were less of breed type then the 3 that were, what does that say about the prospects of breeding them? What it the chance you will get more of the ones that have very little breed type?
Many of you will remember that the BCOSW raised a litter (and one of our members here has one of the offspring) of pups that were Basenji and ??, but the guess was Beagle mix. A few of those pups could have passed really easily as purebreds, but of poor quality. As I remember there was one pup in that litter that could have passed for a Lab puppy….Clearly they were mixes.
