Wanted

[JazzysMom]

@Tayda_Lenny:

When we first started, she was on 1 bicarb 2x day. Since the bicarbs need to be given intact

We are still getting her blood work done every 3 months until she is stabilized. Every vet visit is around $250 for the venous blood gasses and blood chemistry panel. The vet I found that has the blood gas machine is not familiar with Fanconi so I email all of Tayda's results to Dr. Gonto directly for his recommendation.

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Question: Why does the bicarb have to be intact? The paper I have with the Protocol info on it {Fanconi Disease mangement Protocol for Veterinarians by Steve Gonto} says the bicarb can be crushed somewhat and put into a gel-tab and more easily hidden in food.

Also, I guess I'm pretty lucky – the venous blood gas test only cost me $80 at an emergency vet clinic, and the blood chemistry panel is $88, so only $168 total.

As I mentioned before, my vet is also not familiar with Fanconi, but is eager to learn and will be in contact w/Dr. Gonto as we move forward.

[Tayda_Lenny]

If the bicarbs are crushed and given to the dog they will neutralize whatever they are in… i.e. whatever you use to hide the pill. If they are given intact, they will buffer the dog, rather than the food. The protocol does say that if the dog is resistant to eating the whole bicarb hidden in some cheese or something that you can crush it up (as little as possible) and put it in a hollow gelatin capsule. I have never done that - I have just found ways to get them in Tayda.

That's good about the cost. I was considering asking if I could just get the bloodwork done and not have the office visit so I wouldn't have to pay the office visit fee - since it usually just consists of me saying "ok, i'll send these results to Dr. Gonto, and let you know what he says, thanks." That would save me another 60 bucks and I'd be down to about $190 also....

[tanza]

That is what I have heard and been told… about the bicards... that they should be given whole... but whatever is needed to get them into the dog... works.... most that I know have had to do the crushed and put into a gel cap....

And for Tayda... I would certain lean to just have bloodwork done... and just get the results.. since it is really Dr. Gonto that is advising his treatment... and honestly... I would be pretty pissed off with paying for an office visit with an ongoing health problem... my Vets do not charge for that....

[nomrbddgs]

Hi again guys,

Patty, did you get my message to you?

Has anyone tried those 'pocket pills'? I think that's what they are called. Apparently they are treats with a pocket in that you hide the pill. I don't know, but it may be worth a try?

[Patty]

Nomrbddgs - I think so. I have emailed my editors to get your request in our newsletter (BOBA News) and am now in the process of emailing the Basenji correspondent of Our Dogs (UK weekly).
Am I correctthat your newsletter is BCOC?
Did you send another later message? If so I didn't get one. My apologies for not replying earlier.
Incidentally - just remembered - the OD correspondent also had (many years ago) a Basenji cross Boxer. He looked just like a Basenji but Boxer size

[JazzysMom]

Tayda, where do you get your sodium bicarb? I've looked at a couple of pharmacies but can't find plain' ol' sodium bicarb. I find antacids which have sodium bicarb as an inactive ingredient, but not the 10 grains tablets.

[Tayda_Lenny]

I got mine the first time from Walgreens, but then when I went back a few months later they said they didn't sell them anymore. I went to the pharmacy at Stop and Shop (grocery store) and they had a bottle. They said that if they didn't have any they could order them or me. It is about $18 for a 1000 ct bottle.

I have also found them online at amazon.com and even on ebay, but have not bought from there yet. The brand they sell is called Concord…

This is what the bottle I have looks like (URL brand): Crappy pic but you get the idea...

[JazzysMom]

@Tayda_Lenny:

I got mine the first time from Walgreens, but then when I went back a few months later they said they didn't sell them anymore. I went to the pharmacy at Stop and Shop (grocery store) and they had a bottle. They said that if they didn't have any they could order them or me. It is about $18 for a 1000 ct bottle.

I have also found them online at amazon.com and even on ebay, but have not bought from there yet. The brand they sell is called Concord…

This is what the bottle I have looks like (URL brand): Crappy pic but you get the idea...

Thanks – our Walgreens doesn't have them either. I guess I'll check the grocery store pharmacies and see.

[dcmclcm4]

I am with my third B with Fanconi. She turned 10 in December. Two of them were rescues. I also have a young rescue, 18 months old, who was tested via the DNA test, and is probably affected. He came from a BYB in Southern OH and his parents came from KY. He was sold with other Bs to an Amish commercial broker/breeder in central OH so his relatives are probably still breeding and the pups are being sold at petstores. He will probably stay with me permanently as he originally had socialization issues and I was working with him on that when I had him DNA tested. I have all my rescues DNA tested for Fanconi. It is much easier now that one only has to send in a cheek swab but if one of my Bs did come back probably affected then I would send in blood for research purposes.

My suggestion is not to buy from breeders who do not DNA test. If you do anyway, have your dog DNA tested. If you do not DNA test, start urine strip testing your dog monthly starting at 2 years of age and train your dog to take pills. I train mine using brewers yeast tablets coated with dog food. If you do not test your dog monthly, do not have a doggy door and make sure the vet is doing a urine test at the yearly visit. My first rescue with Fanconi was diagnosed soon after being rescued because the owners did not strip test and because the dog used a doggy door they did not notice the frequent peeing. Originally it was thought that he had an UTI. The dog had been to a vet right before being rescued but ironically no urine test was done. He was not always good at taking pills. I think he would have lived longer if he was.

[Terry]

We currently have 2 Fanconi dogs, but have had 6 altogether. We get our bicarb from Costco; they don't have it in stock, but it only takes 1 or 2 days to get it. Here in CA it is $12.75 for 1000 of them. Note: you don't have to be a Costco member to use their pharmacy!

Thanks to the DNA test, we hope never to have to worry about Fanconi again.

Terry

[kiroja]

I've gotten them at WalMart. I think it was $12.

[JazzysMom]

@kiroja:

I've gotten them at WalMart. I think it was $12.

I checked our Walmart today; they don't carry them.

[kiroja]

Bummer. Now that I think about it, I think my WalMart didn't have them, but they got them from a different one and had them transfered over. Might have taken a week? Did you ask if they could check into that?

[Tayda_Lenny]

The Wal-mart here doesn't have them either. I was also told by a few places that I checked that I needed a prescription for them. BOOO….

I think online is a good option also - or Costco. I bought 2 bottles last time so I should be set for 6 months or so... its kind of amazing to think I'll go through that many!

How many bicarbs will Jazzy be taking?

[JazzysMom]

I did find the bicarb tabs at a local pharmacy – I asked about them and the pharmacist had a huge bottle behind the counter from which he had removed a few. He said he hadn't used them for the last several months, so he sold me the rest of the bottle. I'm guessing I got 800 -900 tabs.

At this time she is taking one tab 2x daily. The little turd has already caught on and is able to eat anything from around the tab and spit it out. For that one, I am just shoving it the back of her mouth and holding her mouth until she swallows it.
For the amino and Centrum, which is 1x/week, I crush them into moist food. She is on to that though and I'm really having to stir it in well. It's amazing me how adept she is at eating canned food from around the little teeny pieces of pill, LOL.

Would have been much easier had Keoki been the one -- he eats any treat by the inhalation method and asks "what was that" after it's swallowed whole. Jazz has always been very fussy about what she'll eat -- sniffs it first, then a couple of little licks, then daintily taking it into her mouth... harder to sneak stuff into a dog like that, LOL.

Ah well, it'll be fine; we will get done what must be gotten done.
It's only been a week and we've already noticed a change in her; she's more active and isn't spending quite as much time in her crate.

[Tayda_Lenny]

@JazzysMom:

The little turd has already caught on and is able to eat anything from around the tab and spit it out. For that one, I am just shoving it the back of her mouth and holding her mouth until she swallows it.

Tayda does the SAME thing - drives me nuts. I've tried lots of different things - now I'm using that EZ cheese stuff that comes out of a bottle - squeeze a little on my finger, stick the pills in - pry Tayda's mouth open and wipe it on the top of her mouth. She will swallow it all about 90% of the time. I hate having to force her like that, but she will not eat ANYTHING without fully inspecting it anymore. She will eat around the crushed up pet tabs and pet cal also so I will just use the EZ cheese for those also. Strangely, the Amino fuel - she will eat on its own like a treat.

[JazzysMom]

@Tayda_Lenny:

Tayda does the SAME thing - drives me nuts. I've tried lots of different things - now I'm using that EZ cheese stuff that comes out of a bottle - squeeze a little on my finger, stick the pills in - pry Tayda's mouth open and wipe it on the top of her mouth. She will swallow it all about 90% of the time. I hate having to force her like that, but she will not eat ANYTHING without fully inspecting it anymore. She will eat around the crushed up pet tabs and pet cal also so I will just use the EZ cheese for those also. Strangely, the Amino fuel - she will eat on its own like a treat.

Jazz, so far…, likes the Pet-tabs and eats those with no problem. The Pet-cal she ate willingly the first few days, now she puts it down and licks it a few times before slowly eating it. I have a feeling that may become a pill I have to crush and hide eventually.
I never thought to try and see if she'd just eat the amino tabs. Hmmm, probably won't, but it's worth a shot.

Another "problem" -- how to keep Keoki from getting fat due to Jazzy's Fanconi. :pI mean, I can't keep giving her cheese, etc. and not give him a nibble. He can smell it and gets really excited. LOL And the canned food I have to add to her kibble now to get her to eat... so now he gets a canned/kibble mix. He is really benefiting from this situation. :rolleyes:

[Tayda_Lenny]

Oh, thats really funny - I totally know what you mean. Lenny has gained 3 lbs since Tayda was diagnosed… He's on a diet now. I let him lick the EZ cheese of my fingers after i give it to Tayda but that's about it. He gets smaller treats fewer times a day... He is a voracious eater who also subscribes to the Inhale now, ask later, policy.

Tayda usually won't eat the Pet Cal or the Pet Tab on her own. Strange, cause I've been giving her and Lenny Pet Tabs for years and she always ate them just fine out of her food. I think all the pills just have her on high alert now. It's pretty funny to watch her with the amino fuel though - she will play bow to it and smack it around a little before eating it. What a wierdo!

[JazzysMom]

Today I had put Jazzy's morning bicarb tab in her mouth and was holding her, petting her, rubbing her throat –usually a pretty successful and stress-free way to get her to swallow her pills -- and she managed to spit the bicarb out.

Keoki, ever on the alert for anyone getting some treat and constantly fearing that he is missing out, pounced on that tablet and ate it. You could tell he didn't like it, and kept licking his lips afterward as if he was trying to get rid of something nasty. But he kept it and ate it --wasn't ABOUT to let Jazz get something he couldn't have.

What a dork. LOL