I would never take a chance with heart worm... I use NuHeart that is just for heart worm... small pill once a month... we do not have issues with heart worm in NoCal but I do not take a chance. I use it year round. In the area that there is frost/frozen for the winter you can use it just in the spring/summer/fall months.
For fleas/ticks I use frontline but only when I see fleas... again in NoCal not too much of an issue.. I need to use it maybe about twice a year and only when need or if I am traveling with the pups.
This Was All Preventable
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If you don't test - then you don't know and if you don't know - you can look someone in the eye and say - "my dogs don't have that." Since many of those folks don't know where their dogs currently are and many people contact lists rather than go back to the 'breeder' - they can continue the mythg.
Rather than mandatory health testing - the best way to address it is via puppy lemon laws. Why states like it is "they don't have to do anything but pass the bill" If you say mandatory testing - that means staff and inspections etc etc.
Here is a list of puppy lemon law states - posted on the Maltese list - I do not know how current it is so there MAY be more states. If your state doesn't appear - I think that trying to get it passed is a good thing. It ONLY allows the owner to take the breeder to small claims court to recoup the health expenses - up to the price of the dog.
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Yes Lemon laws can be great if they are effective. How long is the time limit on those lemon laws. If it takes a Basenji 3 years or more to develop symptoms of Fanconi or any other disease then does that lemon law apply?
Is that breeder, or back yard breeder, or pet shop still going to be in business 3 years or more down the road?
What do lemon laws really do to stop irresponsible breeders from passing on genetic disorders from one generation to another as long as they are able to stay in business?
How many people are really going to complain?
Just think about how many people forget to mail in rebates. The companies issuing the rebates are counting on this. So if there is a time limit or restriction then for that irresponsible breeder, it might be worth the financial risk.
In my opinion, lemon laws just allow some financial recovery for the buyer if he or she catching things in time. It does not heal the heart over the loss of that animal, and it also may not be a big enough deterrent.
Just my thoughts
Jason
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Typically it is for one year - so the new owner can get the puppy tested way before 3 years - I have recommended that course of action many times - at least 4 people I know of have used it successfully.
Is it perfect - nope - is it easy to use yes, do some people decide it's too much work yes. You are NEVER going to get all people to do what is right all the time but you have to start somewhere. The media in MN loves to find out about puppy lemon law violations and bad press hurts more than anything.
RE: Broken Heart - nope - BUT - that's life we can be pretty sure that we will be sad at some time.
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What do lemon laws really do to stop irresponsible breeders from passing on genetic disorders from one generation to another as long as they are able to stay in business?
How many people are really going to complain?
The first time I heard of the lemon law in California was during a news segment about a BYB who had a class action law suit filed against them. It was filed against the individual breeder not a company so I don't think the "stay in business" really applies. The dysplastic pups produced ranged in age from 2 years old and 4 years old. She had repeated the breeding several times both parents were dysplastic and puppies from the first litter had been reported as dysplastic before several of the litters were bred.
The interviewed 5 different owners for the news segment. So lemon laws can be effective IF people know about them and file complaints but again it is all about education.
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This sueing bad breeders might just work, if it was successful and made public.
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The first time I heard of the lemon law in California was during a news segment about a BYB who had a class action law suit filed against them. It was filed against the individual breeder not a company so I don't think the "stay in business" really applies. The dysplastic pups produced ranged in age from 2 years old and 4 years old. She had repeated the breeding several times both parents were dysplastic and puppies from the first litter had been reported as dysplastic before several of the litters were bred.
The interviewed 5 different owners for the news segment. So lemon laws can be effective IF people know about them and file complaints but again it is all about education.
I think we need to be realistic and accept the fact that individual can come and go just as puppy mills come and go. While the reasons may be different that either one ceases to exist it does happen.
As has been mentioned there may be time limits involved in regard to lemon laws and depending on your breed and the time for a particular disease varies.
While I am not shooting down education at all, I find I have to compare how education has impacted other areas of our lives and how ineffective it can be. Education has not stopped teen pregnancy. Education has not stopped the spread of Aids, Diabetes, Drug use, or Alcoholism. While some might consider this statement extreme, law enforcement, and penalties have not stopped crime or murder.
I guess what I am attempting to say is that unless a very tight control of any given situation is taken, there is no real effective way of preventing those situations from happening. Even when tight control and severe penalties apply, people will continue to violate others as long as they feel that can get away with it.
Jason
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I am going to have to disagree with you. There is no solution that is 100% effective but the studies that have been done related to the topics you have mentioned do show that education does work. Some education is more effective than others and often controversy about what should be taught decreases the efficacy of education.
I am also going to be a little harsh here and say that there are also plenty of people out there who get dogs from irresponsible breeders because they are bargain hunting, don't want to answer responsible breeders questions, refuse to wait, etc. For those people, you get what you pay for, not just monetarily but in the effort you are willing to expend on an endeavor. At some point people have to take responsibility for their choices and actions.
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I am going to have to disagree with you. There is no solution that is 100% effective but the studies that have been done related to the topics you have mentioned do show that education does work. Some education is more effective than others and often controversy about what should be taught decreases the efficacy of education.
I am also going to be a little harsh here and say that there are also plenty of people out there who get dogs from irresponsible breeders because they are bargain hunting, don't want to answer responsible breeders questions, refuse to wait, etc. For those people, you get what you pay for, not just monetarily but in the effort you are willing to expend on an endeavor. At some point people have to take responsibility for their choices and actions.
+1.
To me, ineffective would be 0% change or a negative %. Even +1% is a positive outcome. It might not be the number we want or think should be the result, but again, things take time to catch on…Rome wasn't built in a day. The lemon laws are a step in the right direction, IMHO...especially if it gets even a handful of bybs or puppymills to think about what they are doing and stop.
To that end, there are people on this forum that have purchased from petstores (puppymills and/or bybs) or bybs that now know they made a mistake and now know the difference between a responsible breeder and byb. I seriously doubt that now armed with the proper education they would opt to go their original route again...no matter how wonderful their pet. So if it stops even a handful of people on here from making the same mistake, then, to me, the education has been effective.
Lisa, while some may think what you said as harsh about cut rate pricing and immediate gratification, I completely agree with what you said. It is the elephant in the room and needs to be said.
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I am going to have to disagree with you. There is no solution that is 100% effective but the studies that have been done related to the topics you have mentioned do show that education does work. Some education is more effective than others and often controversy about what should be taught decreases the efficacy of education.
I am also going to be a little harsh here and say that there are also plenty of people out there who get dogs from irresponsible breeders because they are bargain hunting, don't want to answer responsible breeders questions, refuse to wait, etc. For those people, you get what you pay for, not just monetarily but in the effort you are willing to expend on an endeavor. At some point people have to take responsibility for their choices and actions.
I do not have any problem with you disagreeing with me. After all that is the point of discussion.
I do not think you are being harsh at all and I find it a positive thing to directly and honestly address what you see as the root of the problem. I think we need more of this and not less of it. Its almost like we are so concerned about hurting someone's feelings that we bite our lips and do not share how we really feel.
Thanks at least for stepping forward and doing so.
Jason
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I think Euthanizing a dog that is diagnosed with Fanconi is a bit harsh - but requiring them to be spayed/neutered would achieve the same effect, no? Which is not allowing them to produce any Fanconi affected (or carrier) offspring.
If someone tried to make me put Tayda down cause she has Fanconi I would have to beat them up.
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I think Euthanizing a dog that is diagnosed with Fanconi is a bit harsh - but requiring them to be spayed/neutered would achieve the same effect, no? Which is not allowing them to produce any Fanconi affected (or carrier) offspring.
If someone tried to make me put Tayda down cause she has Fanconi I would have to beat them up.
I wouldn't either unless it was absolutely in their best interest, quality of life would be the major factor, I wouldn't neuter mine, the risk would worry me if they were already compromised, I have mum, two sons and a daughter who I wouldn't mate either so I can't see why the circumstances would be any different.
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I think Euthanizing a dog that is diagnosed with Fanconi is a bit harsh - but requiring them to be spayed/neutered would achieve the same effect, no? Which is not allowing them to produce any Fanconi affected (or carrier) offspring.
If someone tried to make me put Tayda down cause she has Fanconi I would have to beat them up.
Of course….it is a little ridiculous to suggest putting Fanconi affected animals down when their quality of life is still good. Why would anyone put a beloved pet to sleep when they were still enjoying life? Maybe I missed something, but I don't really understand this suggestion?
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I was responding to this post…. I also think that mandatory euthanasia after diagnosis would deter pet owners from getting their dogs tested and diagnosed properly.
While most likely a pipe dream, if there was a way to lobby and get a bill authored in regard to known diseases in breeds require mandatory health testing that would be a step in the right direction. The next problem would be enforcement of that health testing. At this point, we cannot even shut down the puppy mills and even if we could, how would we find all the back yard breeders. On top of this add to the issues the rescue and re-homing of dogs that are placed but not completely tested for all known existing diseases prior to that placement.
Clearly there are many many issues that exist. So what is the best way to combat these things and fight back. I think clearly what lvoss, Tanza, and others have stated is right now the best way to be effective is to be pro active and spread the word through websites, conversations, blogs, and what ever public means possible. If you are a member of a local dog club that meets do they address these types of issues on a regular basis. Can it be added to the agenda so its addressed occasionally. In addition can we find a way to bring pressure on the rescue organizations and placement agencies to test for Fanconi and other health issues so they might be disclosed to any perspective person considering the adoption on an animal.
Even considering everything above, what should really happen to the affected dogs. Should Fanconi affected Dogs be euthanized? Its this a more humane type of solution? Sure this is a horrible solution but how does it really compare to the life that these dogs might be subjected to. This I think is topic that seriously needs to be debated.
Jason
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I was responding to this post…. I also think that mandatory euthanasia after diagnosis would deter pet owners from getting their dogs tested and diagnosed properly.
Oh, sorry, Michelle…I quoted your post, but I knew where you were coming from. I guess I meant it as a rhetorical question...why would anyone euthanize a dog that wasn't showing a poor quality of life?
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Yeah, I dunno. Obviously if quality of life was severely compromised thats another issue - but applies for all afflictions, not just Fanconi.
Aside from the 2x/day where Tayda gets her pills, and the extra care and thought I have to put into what to feed her - she is just the same as she always was - my little Potato.
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These are the questions I asked:
Even considering everything above, what should really happen to the affected dogs. Should Fanconi affected Dogs be euthanized? Its this a more humane type of solution? Sure this is a horrible solution but how does it really compare to the life that these dogs might be subjected to. This I think is topic that seriously needs to be debated.
I am glad to see some discussion on this. Since many of us do not have experience owning and caring for a Fanconi afflicted dog, wouldn't it be beneficial for those with experience caring for these afflicted animals to share what it is like to live with and take care of these Basenji's that suffer from Fanconi?
While I realize talking about caring for your Fanconi afflicted Basenji is a very sensitive subject with painful memories for many, wouldn't it be very beneficial and educational to let those of us know who have not experienced this, understand what the day in the life of afflicted dogs and their owners is like? How bad does it actually get?
How long is long enough before it becomes evident that the quality of life is suffering?
While its always a personal decision, what do you think the deciding factors are, and how do you know when its time to let them go?
While I cannot recall the post or the author, didn't someone in this forum ask for someone to step forward who has a Fanconi affected dog and write an article of their experiences to be shared in a news letter so others share and learn? I am curious, did they ever find anyone who had a Fanconi afflicted dog to write this?
If no one has stepped up to write an article like this, then I ask, why is it that no one seems to want to talk about this experience?
Jason
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Yes, they did… Khanis Basenjis offered her experiences to Arlene, who was the one that asked.
And every dog is different... with Fanconi.. some do well on the protocol, some do not, some will take the pills, some will not... Of the people that I know that have had or have Affected dogs, other organs in the body become affected, but again when or how long is different for each dog. Of course the organ most affected is the kidneys and usually the first to start to shut down
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Jennifer Hill posts here sometimes, and I am sure she would be more than happy to share her experiences with Fanconi affected dogs. I know that she has had at least two…Zippy and Missy (our Querk's sister).
It could be that no one has stepped forward because it just isn't that dramatic, if the dog does well on the protocol? If your dog takes the pills, life just goes on like normal until it doesn't work anymore. If your dog doesn't take the pills, that is a different situation, and I know several people that were miserable, and their dogs were miserable trying to force down 20 plus pills a day.
I am not sure what the animosity is towards people who haven't stepped forward to share their story?
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OK here goes….. like Quercus said - it's really not that dramatic. Tayda was just diagnosed in November so it's only been about 6 months that we have been managing her Fanconi. First - the pills she is on:
1/2 pet tab plus - twice a day
1/2 pet cal - twice a day
5 bicarbs - twice a day
1 potassium tablet - twice a day
1 fish oil - once a day (not for fanconi)
1 cranberry - once a day
1 centrum complete - once a week (wednesday)
1 amino fuel - once a week (friday)
1 scoopful of yogurt with probiotics in it (to help with UTIs))So if you add it all up - she is taking somewhere between 18 - 19 pills per day, depending on which day of the week it is, separated between two meals. The good news is, all of these pills are available over the counter and are not expensive. The bicarbs and the potassium MUST be given intact, the rest can be ground up and mixed with food, provided she eats the food.
When we first started, she was on 1 bicarb 2x day. Since the bicarbs need to be given intact so I would cover them in cream cheese and she would just eat it without inspecting them. After about a week of that, she became wise to them so now I basically have to force her to eat them. It doens't matter what I hide them in, she will spit out the pill if I give them to her to eat on her own. So, I hide them in cream cheese, pry open her mouth, wipe them on the top of her mouth and she will reluctantly swallow them. As of a few days ago, I have started hiding all 5 bicarbs and the potassium in a big glop of the yogurt and if i can get that in her mouth, she will swallow it. Sometimes she spits it all out all over the floor, and I have to quickly scoop up all the pills before Lenny eats them all, and then start over again. I could grind the rest of the pills, but since she rarely finishes her food - I have been giving her the rest of the pills the same way, in case she decides she doesn't want to eat, which is most of the time.
Her food is a mix of dry and wet food. She is super picky so I am still trying to find the right foods that she will eat consistently.
I feed her one round of pills around 7am and food right after. Usually she doesn't touch the food.
I go to work and come home around 4:30pm. I check the crate she and Lenny are in for any wet spots to see if she has peed in the crate (signs of UTI). If she does have a UTI, I call the vet to get a course of Clavamox. Which means two extra pills per day for ~10 days. Luckily the vet has just trusted me that I know what a UTI looks like in Tayda - particularly since in Fanconi dogs a urinanalysis can come up normal even if a UTI exists.
Second round of pills at 7pm and food right after.
We are still getting her blood work done every 3 months until she is stabilized. Every vet visit is around $250 for the venous blood gasses and blood chemistry panel. The vet I found that has the blood gas machine is not familiar with Fanconi so I email all of Tayda's results to Dr. Gonto directly for his recommendation.
Other than the pill/meal times, everything is normal. She plays with me and Lenny, snuggles on the couch with me, gets grouchy at Lenny and turns him over on his back, chases squirrels in the yard, all the usual stuff.
i have a fenced yard so letting her out all the time is not an issue. She does drink a lot more than before, but so far there haven't been any accidents in the house that were not connected with a UTI.
Thats about it. Like I said, aside from keeping things organized with the pills and being more cognizant of what I feed her, it's all pretty much business as usual.
Oh, except - I have pretty much written off going on vacation anywhere. There is just no one around here I trust to take care of her. Which, from a selfish standpoint, SUCKS.
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Michelle,
Thank you for posting about Tayda… and kudos to you for the time, effort that you have put into her...
Your post bring home the point of why now that we have testing that we should never produce another Fanconi affected dog... and your experience with not being able to find a Vet that is familar with Fanconi makes your job ever harder...It is a credit to your dedication... and to all the people that have had to deal with a Fanconi affected dog... it is not fun.... to have to worry about... every day, "how am I going to get the pills into my dog"... if not something I would ever wish on anyone... and my heart goes out to all of you that have had to do so... and found ways of doing it..
I remember when Parry found out about Jaadii spilling... he was much like Tayda... at first he could hide the pills in treats... but after a week or so, he figured that out pretty quick... they came to an understanding that he would "let" Parry shove the pills down him.. but he was not happy about it...
Michelle,
Have you tried feeding her first and then doing the pills? I only ask because my Kristii is on daily meds and I have found that if I do the pills after she eats.. she doesn't relate the pills to her regular meals.... just a thought....
And I hear you about vacation.. "what is that?"...gggg Again, my heart goes out to you... and hugs to TaydaIMO... any time that you have to start shoving 10 to 20 pills 2x's a day into a dog.. it is totally stressful...
