Crate Re-Training?

[eeeefarm]

@mtins:

Loki is great at getting in the crate when we're practicing, but when it comes time for us to actually crate him and leave for work, he's still having none of it.

Yes, because he knows you are leaving him locked in there! This is a hard one to fix, once they have "figured it out". I had a horse that hated trailering, although I had trained him to load into the trailer and in practice I could lead him to the ramp, throw the lead rope over his neck, and he would walk on and stand while I closed it up. But if he knew we were actually going somewhere, it would take a long time to get him on! He was genuinely afraid of the experience, and would paw and defecate, put one foot on the ramp, take it off, etc. until finally he would overcome his fear and walk on, but when we got where we were going, he was always drenched in sweat. I felt sorry for him, so we didn't trailer very often.

If Loki is actually afraid of being left confined, it makes it very difficult, because he will pick up the cues that you are actually leaving, as opposed to having a training session. The only advice I can offer is to vary your routine enough that he isn't really sure which it is, and that's hard to do when you have to meet a schedule. Clicker training is great for teaching him what you want, but it would seem he already knows.

There are lots of articles and youtube videos on the subject, but as I said, it would appear he already knows the basics. Training him to go in is not your problem, teaching him to like it when he knows he will be left alone is. I would suggest making his crate a very desirable place to be, by asking him to go in often when you are home, and rewarding intermittently. I would also tease him with something very delectable from time to time, and put it in his crate and lock him out, so he wants it. Build anticipation for the moment you open the door and allow him to get it. Don't only do this when you are going out (so he doesn't associate it only with you leaving), but I would do it when you are going to leave.

[stash]

Kaiser tries to outsmart me everyday and you really have to adjust what you are doing to outsmart them or they will run rings around you. Being on a deadline to leave the house would make it hard for you as you need to be patient or they sense your frustration to get going. I read somewhere one time about changing your routine of leaving every time so he doesn't see the pattern of you getting ready to leave the house. But really agree with making the crate the best place to be when you are gone. Good luck and try and have a laugh about how Loki is trying to outsmart you, sometimes I don't realise I'm being out done by my boy and I think you sneaky little bugger.

Jolanda and Kaiser

[DebraDownSouth]

I think also that you may need to do a lot of obedience training to start getting the little darling into a relationship status that doing commands is fun AND habit. At his age, sit, stay, down, and yes– walking INTO HIS CRATE, should be established. I keep posting this link, but Mary is so clear with clicker training she'll make you feel faint. Think of it as relationship building and HAVE FUN doing it. It will be okay.

http://www.clickerlessons.com/index.htm

THE LESSONS links are on the left, but you might want to read most of the site.

[mtins]

So, little update. Loki has gotten much better about going into the crate with the help of a Kong frozen with cream cheese and peanut butter. I put the Kong at the edge of the crate, and lock the door to tease him (like was suggested) and get my stuff packed up in the morning to leave. So, most mornings, by the time I open the door and push the Kong to the back of the crate, Loki is sitting in front of the door whining for me to open the door.

Some mornings are smoother than others. Yesterday, he paced for a solid 10 minutes whining, but not fighting me, because he gets the routine now. This morning, he walked right in on the first try and didn't even look at me when I said goodbye and closed the door.

Progress, I think!

However, we've had another issue pop up. Loki's aggression has come back full force. Not sure if I should continue this question here, or start a new thread, but it's kind of scary. It's the worst at bedtime. Loki sleeps on the bed with us, and has never had a problem. However, for the last two weeks or so, when we close the door for "bed time" and get into bed, he goes absolutely bonkers and starts sprinting, biting, and then sprinting away again. It's actually scary. He got me so hard with his front teeth a couple of days ago that it's already turned black and blue. Is Loki trying to dominate us? It's at the worst time of day, too, since by the time 11:30 rolls around for bed time, my fianc? and I are both tired and not terribly full on patience…
+M

[eeeefarm]

Put a leash on him at bedtime and stop this in its tracks. It may be playful or something else. If he displays any aggression once you are all in bed, I would remove him from the bed (helpful to have the leash on him for this), give him a time out before allowing him back, or put the crate by the bed and he can sleep there for awhile. (I hesitate to recommend this because of your crating issues).

[tanza]

With that behavior on the bed, he would be on the floor immediately… and no more bed!

[Chealsie508]

from what you describe, the biting, sprinting and then returning only to sprint away again…its a playful overstimulation. My bed is a source of excitement for my boy (much what u describe, and mainly when i open the bedroom to put laundry away) and leads to too much stim. and therefore I limit his access unless its bedtime (when he doesn't do that). The bed or the bedtime ritual may be overstimulating to him prompting a sporadic play (that coupled with a lack of bite control) is whats causing him to do that.... otherwise, he could recognize the ritual but isnt tired so he wants to play. It doesnt sound to me aggressive, it sounds like over-stimulation and the biting is antagonizing you to join in (chase me!) and because he lacks control, he bites hard.
I agree with Pat, because this is a pattern, he needs to be trained out of it, or tuckered out before entering the bedroom- and until then, the bed is off limits.

[DebraDownSouth]

I agree with Chealsie, it is normal for Cara especially if we want bed and she's not tired. Fortunately she has a mouth like butter so though she bites and jumps around like she is on springs and makes wild animal noises, getting her to play fetch for a bit takes the edge off and she goes to bed. I usually see it as "I didnt' do my job in tiring her out." Sometimes though, I am too tired and she is sad but goes on to bed. To me it isn't aggression, it is desperation for release of energy . Might help to make a new routine… 10 mins of high play soon before bed.

[mtins]

Hi all, so it's been a couple of weeks. I was out of town all of last week for a death in the family, and while I was gone, Loki only had one bad night with my fianc?. He just made sure to make the pre-bed ritual as short as possible, and Loki was back to normal. However, since I got back two days ago, it seems that I myself may be a trigger. Last night, I walked upstairs and got right into bed, and Loki went from 0-nuts in two seconds. He was definitely worn out and excercized enough, so I don't think being tired enough is the issue. A switch just flipped. We got him off of the bed and did some sit/shake practice with a treat and he responded well, but went back to crazy as soon as it was gone.

Tonight, we'll keep a leash in the room, and the crate, if needed. I'm just so confused. All of the normal solutions don't seem to work with Loki. Getting up and walking away doesn't help - he just follows me and continues to bite. Yelping doesn't help, neither does removing him from the bed entirely. We don't go into the bedroom with him for any other reason than to sleep, and this pretty much just started out of nowhere. He used to be so good on the bed. The breeder suggested crating him in the bedroom with us with a kong, and beyond that, a behavioristt, for the bed issue as well as "bite control."

Do you think we're at the point of a behaviorist yet? Am I being too whiney about this? I love Loki, I just don't understand this.

Thanks,
+M

[eeeefarm]

I'm not sure how to respond to this, because of course I can't "see" what he is doing, only your interpretation of what is going on. Whether you are missing something significant or not, I cannot tell. Yes, your presence may be a trigger. Who does he like best? Could this be a jealousy issue? Is he aggressive in any other context? So many questions…..

I would definitely have the leash, and not just have it available, but have it attached. You need to be able to control the situation quickly when he gets crazy. No more rewards for bad behaviour. (the silliness itself may be rewarding to him). I know what I would likely do, but hesitate to recommend it when I don't know your confidence level, as there is no point in giving advice that may make the situation worse. Perhaps the safest route is to just redirect with the leash right into the crate when he gets crazy, close the door, let him think about it. Rinse, repeat, until he tones it down.

[mtins]

I'm comfortable taking any measures necessary to train this out of Loki. I don't know if that's what you mean by confidence level - I'm great at following directions once I know what I'm doing. I think that's the main question here - where do I start?

In terms of what you asked before - I think he favors me. I have always been "mommy," and I spend more time with Loki, since I work from home twice a week, and it's me that takes him to the dog park on weekends. Oddly enough though, he always starts the night sleeping on Ryan, and only moves to my side during the night.

He gets similarly aggressive/"bitey" when he gets too riled up during play. Ryan and I know not to roughhouse with him, but sometimes when we have him around other friends, they will sometimes play rough with him, which ends up in biting 100% of the time. He will also sometimes bite when one of us comes home for the day. It seems to be an over-excitement issue, but not related to how worn out he is. I am working from home all week this week, and am making sure to take him on multiple half-hour plus walks a day (so that he will nap or play and I can actually get some work done). Next week when I'm back in the office, it's our plan to take him to a cage-free daycare in the area and see if being completely exhausted does anything.

It's too bad you're in Canada! I'd gladly invite you to come witness the crazy.

[Chealsie508]

perhaps if you are the trigger for bedtime (and I still believe its over stimulation ((nothing to do with being tired, but being tired does help, not fix it)). What if you go to the bedroom first, get into bed….give it five or ten minutes, lights out, and then have your fiance and Loki come in. Or vice-versa, your fiance go to bed, you wait and come in afterwards. Perhaps Loki is excited that "everybodys going to bed!"
Since he did well with just one person, perhaps try that??

avoidance of the stim. thresh hold for enough repetition may be enough to train him out of the behavior. My oakley is much like your Loki, EASILY overstimulated, VERY mouthy, and no bite inhibition. Rough housing, tug of war...they are all out of the question for him. Same with trying to de-escalate and overstimulated session, often time because I cant use a verbal command, physically resist, or walk away without him running after me and nipping.... he gets a quick crate time out to de-escalate himself.

[eeeefarm]

I've certainly seen Basenjis get rough when played with that way, and when they get overstimulated. You certainly want to tell your friends that playing rough is "off the table". My current boy used to get pretty wild, because my husband encouraged it. When it got to leaping and sleeve pulling, I put a lid on it. But Perry would usually cool it when asked. He can still get silly when running loose in a wind, but he refrains from jumping at me because he knows better. A pup is a little different than dealing with a grown dog.

I suggested a leash as it is an easy way to take control of a situation. My own approach is a little more physical, and frowned upon by some on this forum. If I call for quiet and don't get the response I want, I will restrain the dog physically until he quits struggling. Only then do I let him go, and if he starts up again I do it again. I don't hurt him, but I do put him in a "bear hug" that he can't get away from until he stops resisting. Then I praise and release. A dog that doesn't want to be restrained can put up quite a struggle, and that may involve teeth, so it isn't an approach I would advocate if you are worried about being bitten, and once you start you don't let him go, no matter what, until he quits it. That's why I don't recommend this approach, although it has served me well and given good results when I have employed it.

I would try to head off this behaviour before it starts. If you know under what circumstances he gets over stimulated, try to "change the channel" before it occurs. If he persists in being crazy, a leash will allow you to restrain him in relative safety. I also assume you have a word to indicate to him that he should quit what he is doing? A loud "no" before you interrupt his behaviour with the leash gives him a chance to "do the right thing", and if he does, lots of praise should reward his effort to restrain himself.

[mtins]

So, here's our first night update. I got into bed while my fianc? was walking Loki for the last time before bed. The hope was that maybe if I was already in bed, he wouldn't freak as much. Fiance walked Loki upstairs on his leash. However, once he let go, Loki jumped up on the bed and immediately went into digging and biting the sheets, so it doesn't appear that me being in bed first helped. However, we immediately pulled him off of the bed with the leash on and made him sit (no treats, but praise) and calm down. This probably went on for about 10 or 15 minutes - he'd jump up, dig, and then get pulled off and corrected.

After the last couple times of leash corrections, Loki decided that it was time to assert more, and started his sprinting and biting us. I immediately grabbed him, "bear hugged" him, and stopped him with a corrective "NO biting." We went through this probably three or four times, as when I'd let him go after he calmed down (and received praise), he'd go right back to biting and sprinting, but the last time, he stayed seated on the floor while I got back into bed and fianc? brushed his teeth. He waited to come back up on the bed until fianc? called him, and when he jumped up, immediately put a toy in his mouth, laid down, and went to sleep.

So all in all, not an awful start. I must be honest that I was relieved to hear you say that you use a "bear hug" on your dogs. I have done this before with other dogs I've owned, but was told that "you can't do that with a Basenji." However, I think different techniques work better for different dogs, even of the same breed. We will see how tonight goes.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions!

[eeeefarm]

@mtins:

So all in all, not an awful start. I must be honest that I was relieved to hear you say that you use a "bear hug" on your dogs. I have done this before with other dogs I've owned, but was told that "you can't do that with a Basenji."

I've heard that a lot, but it hasn't been my personal experience. As a matter of fact, I posted a thread a few years ago when I was new to the forum with exactly that title. You might enjoy reading it…....it's about my experiences with my first (and best!) Basenji.

http://www.basenjiforums.com/showthread.php?11775-quot-You-can-t-do-that-with-a-Basenji!-quot&highlight=

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The dog will tell you if you are on the right track in your training. The dog will also inform you when you are not. Even if you are "doing it all right", if it isn't working, it is time to change the channel. What was that definition of insanity again? Repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results? (of course, some people think we are all insane to want a Basenji in the first place!)

I hope you get your problems sorted out. You have previous dog experience, and Basenjis, although they have their quirks, are not so very different.

[DebraDownSouth]

I think it depends on the dog. It is funny, but yep the bear hug has worked with both Sayblee and Cara when they were into the wilds. (Arwen never gets wild in any way… far too dignified to be like that thank you!) If bear hugs escalates or they seriously try to bite you, then it isn't working. But most do hate being restrained enough that they get it. In fact I'd rather restrain than ever use a crate for PUNISHMENT. Now if you used the crate just to make him sleep in, yeah. But bad behavior then in crate sets up a bad connection. Hope things continue to go well.