I love the pictures - what a contrast!!
My new brindle bundle of joy…
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O.K. one other thought. How is she with other dogs? Would she still freak with another, calm, older dog confined with her? Any idea? Can you borrow one? Perhaps there is a foster out there that would serve to calm her while she (hopefully) outgrows this phase, or matures enough that she can be trusted uncrated…..
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Have you contacted your breeder?
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Pamela,
Oakley resisted his collar (we've had martingales from day 1) but other than typical scratching and being annoyed at having the collar on, it didn't bother him until I clipped it to his leash and corrected his movement, he would buck the leash when I applied pressure)…however, the leash and collar were not "confinement triggers" as I call them. His triggers involve physical barriers rather than restricted motion...him and I have just started to mesh more on leash, but to my dismay he will never be the running partner I hoped. It would be awesome if you lived closer to your breeder, I would almost ask that if they were you gave Ava to them for a period of time to "reset" her clock if you will...a different plae,person (like your breeder) is great for resolving repetitive issues that don't get better over time within the home. If it gets to be that desperate then perhaps it's a consideration. I really did go through what you are going through with Ava...unfortunately, I decided to deal with it and hope it got better with time ( not the right thing I know, I just felt that I had no other choice but to just live through it)...and lucky for me the hospital visit was three days and they have him continuous anxiety medication with a slight sedative...and although he chewed through quite a few IV sets...he came home cured. There's no other word for it except CURED -
I have thought about a second dog, and perhaps that would help, though having other dogs around at the vet's didn't have an effect. I left her there for almost a day to see if they could calm her down. She actually upset the other dogs. And she held her urine for more than six hours… when she goes at least once an hour on the carpet at home! She had diarrhea in the crate right away... and then again throughout the day.
The breeder says that some dogs are a bit slower than others and some owners think they will never survive it. He suggested that I contact a recommended trainer. I did that, and now I will contact another trainer or a behaviorist and get a second opinion, since my vet has ruled out medical causes. My vet thinks Ava is too young for meds, though another half a day screaming at the vet's office might change her mind PDQ.
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My vet thinks Ava is too young for meds, though another half a day screaming at the vet's office might change her mind PDQ.
How old is Ava? And how old was she when you brought her home? Fear period??
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Chealsie– Ava sounds so much like Oakley, and you give me hope that, with time and love, she might get past this. Our Martingale s/b here any day now, so perhaps that will help with the walking. I've taken the other collars off her for now, since those are stressors that I can remove.
Spencer wasn't the running buddy I had hoped, either. We enjoyed our walks, but he never really heeled well and those jogs on the beach that I imagined never came to pass. Spencer did go to puppy boot camp-- though he was pretty well trained before going there-- so I might do that for Ava, if she will settle down. I wouldn't want to do more harm than good. Though in your case, separation was a good thing-- actually, the thing that finally broke through.
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How old is Ava? And how old was she when you brought her home? Fear period??
Ava is 16 weeks. I brought her home at 12 weeks. Isn't the fear period from 8-12 wks? With a second one at 5 or 6 months? I may be completely wrong on that.
She exhibited this crate phobia immediately in the car. She panicked and had diarrhea right after we pulled out of the breeder's driveway. In hindsight, perhaps I should have turned around so we could try and calm her there, but we thought she would settle down in the car. She screamed all the way home and still does it. So it was a bad experience for her, but she doesn't seem to mind the crate at all until the door closes. The little girl has a great set of lungs, I'll give her that.
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Ava is 16 weeks. I brought her home at 12 weeks. Isn't the fear period from 8-12 wks?
Supposed to be 8 - 11 weeks, so theoretically you should be O.K. at 12 weeks, but maybe Ava didn't read the book.
She exhibited this crate phobia immediately in the car, though. She panicked and had diarrhea right after we pulled out of the breeder's driveway. In hindsight, perhaps I should have taken her back so we could try and calm her there, but we thought she would settle down in the car. She screamed all the way home and still does it. So it was a bad experience, but she doesn't seem to mind the crate at all until the door closes. The little girl has a great set of lungs, I'll give her that.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Don't beat yourself up over it, but yes, it would be better if it hadn't happened. I have always thought it is too much for a puppy to be taken away from Mom and siblings and have no physical contact while being transported. I realize it is "less safe", in case of a car accident, but we brought our pups home sitting on my husband's lap. He got peed on a few times with each pup, but in both cases they were warm, secure, and slept most of the way when they weren't waking up and peeing on him.
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I agree with you. It makes sense to do it that way, and I had thought to have her both in and out of the crate on the trip. But the breeder advised me to keep her in the crate for her safety, so that's what I did. We talked to her, played soft music and petted her through the crate, but it still backfired. Though one of her littermates flew out of the country in a crate, without being removed once, and is perfectly fine. Sadly, Ava is just a different dog. I wish I knew how to help her.
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One more thought– I am thinking to try Reiki on Ava. I have found a local practitioner through a holistic vet. Has anyone ever tried that with a B?
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Not Reiki, but I had acupuncture done on one of mine. It didn't cure the condition we were trying to fix, but I was amazed at how calm it made her. She was her normal "uptight at the vet" self until the needles went in, then she gradually relaxed and finally went right to sleep on the table. It was amazing! Always good to think outside the box. You'll find a solution.
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I truly believe and know you will get past this. With Oakley his "wisdom" came with age and at some point they kind of wake up to the way of the world. The ones that don't are usually a product of sad circumstance…which isn't your case.
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Thanks for the encouragement. I had hoped we could move beyond this and she could have a normal, happy puppyhood, but that is seeming increasingly unlikely. Day after day with no improvement is so draining. We'll try the behaviorist referral and see if there's anything more to be done. I'm not crazy about the idea of more meds, but at some point, I suppose that has to be considered. Actually, if she were a child, she'd already be on Ritalin, among other things, and probably in therapy, too. But, then, I guess seeing a behaviorist is therapy.
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I am trying to get a picture in my mind of what her behaviour is like, I mean when you are not trying to crate her. What does she do that is abnormal for a puppy, except go berserk in the crate? I know you said her housebreaking was going backwards, but again, does she just "go" everywhere with no notice, or does she do the usual puppy thing of playing, then sniffing around and relieving herself?
Are all your issues tied to not being able to confine her? Or is something else going on…..
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Yes, there's the normal bouncing off the walls puppy stuff, but it's more than that. She goes crazy in the crate every time– still diarrhea everywhere. She refuses to go potty outside. You can stay out there with her for 20 minutes, then she'll go within minutes of getting inside. She goes a lot-- several times an hour, all day long. No sniffing, no tells, so it's difficult to hustle her out in time. She goes several times during the night-- doesn't ask to go out and is content to wallow in it. No UTI, she held it for more than six hours at the vet, and she knows the "go potty" command. She was almost house trained-- very few accidents-- before she regressed. She can't stand closed doors-- she becomes very destructive trying to get out. She won't walk at all on a leash. She digs in and refuses to budge. I work on these things every day, but there is no improvement. The trainer said Ava is very dominant, has separation anxiety, is confinement-phobic and has compulsive behaviors (claws the walls, chews the carpet, bangs against the door). She does not like to be corrected and the trainer feels this will escalate. There are other things, but this gives you a picture.
I realize this may sound manageable, but I have no way to confine her, I can't walk her without dragging her and she won't house train. She's doing a lot of damage in my house. I have to work, and I have to leave the house sometimes. She can't always go with me and I'm running out of dog sitters.
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Oh boy. I think you need to change the channel, the sooner the better. This is just not working out for you. Would it be possible to place her with a trainer for a time? Obviously you need someone with a good reputation that you can trust, but maybe the only fix is to completely change her environment, basically start with a clean slate. Without seeing the pup and watching you interact it is very hard to give any advice, but what you have tried so far is not working. Certainly the frequency of her "bathroom breaks" is not normal. What is her feeding schedule? The picture you paint is of an animal in constant emotional distress…..
Unfortunately you can never be sure of the right decision until you see the results.
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I'm looking into a two-week off-site training/boarding. The behaviors are the same with a private trainer in my home, so I do feel it's important to change the environment and reboot her behavior. The crate phobia has been the same in other places, however. And the weather hasn't helped– it has rained or snowed almost constantly since I brought her home. The grass is wet and high and she just hates it. So warmer, drier weather may help. I have been successful with clicker training for basic commands.
She eats three times a day-- at 7, at 12 and at 5. She does not have to go to the bathroom right after she eats, however, like a lot of puppies. I take her out every hour, though she shouldn't have to go nearly that much. She drinks a ton of water. And she only pees a little each time. Sounds like a UTI or kidney issue, but we've checked for that. Trainer and vets all think it stems from the confinement phobia. It would be so much better if she could have freedom in the house without crating. Maybe when she's older...
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I'm looking into a two-week off-site training/boarding. The behaviors are the same with a private trainer in my home, so I do feel it's important to change the environment and reboot her behavior.
I think that is an excellent idea! My fingers are crossed that this all works out for you. Remember, it is always darkest before the dawn.
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Thanks so much! This has been unexpectedly trying, but hopefully, it will all turn out.
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I talked with our friends about their first boy, he was flown down and hated the crate because of the bad experience. He'd panic and have diarrhea as well. They said it took about 4-5 months of working with him, starting out with I think a minute and very gradually increasing the time for him to be ok. Then again, they are able to have at least one person home most of the time. They've offered to exchange email or maybe phone if you wanted to talk with them.
With Loki for weeks I never even shut the door. I tried to let him scream it out, but it made him fearful of the crate so I didn't try again. Tiny baby steps, beginning with eating from my hand crate door open to me giving him his food through the bars with the door still open just so it'd take longer. Eventually I progressed to closing the door but immediately opening it so he'd barely notice it was closed before he could come out again. I'd literally add seconds to the amount of time the door would be shut so that he wouldn't begin getting worked up. If he got worked up, he would regress and we'd have to go back a few steps. I think for him it took a good 6-8 months to get him to be fine while crated, but the first few months was very slow going. I couldn't even give him a Kong with the door closed because he'd be so anxious he'd ignore it. And his crate is a size larger than it should be (if you go by the "enough room to turn around") because he still does not do well with that small of a confined space.
I became quite tan with Loki. He was a stubborn little thing with potty training. I could be outside for an hour waiting for him to go, bring him in and he'd pee on the floor. At 6 months he held his bladder and bowels for nearly 12 hours because he simply refused to go in my mother's yard (he was leashed because she does not have a fence up). I'd have to stay outside until he went, however long that took, because I knew as soon as we came in, he'd pee!
On the advice of a trainer, I put away his food bowl and hand fed him throughout the day. He didn't get any treats until about 5-6 months old (brought him home at 8 weeks). It was sort of like a NILIF thing, he'd get food throughout the day by working for it. When he pottied outside, he got some kibble; voluntarily going near, and eventually in, his crate = loads of praise and kibble. I did not have a job at the time, so it was far easier than if I had had one. He was very headstrong and did not like not getting his way so this worked very well for us…he'd have to listen or do something good to get his food (he never went a day without getting all his food, I made sure he had plenty of opportunities). Even when I transitioned to using treats for training I still fed food by hand in crate because we were still working on that.
Ava sounds much worse off and it might be a very good idea to look into sending her somewhere to do some training. Some time apart might work out well for both of you. It's very hard to remain calm when things aren't going smoothly and that's where I struggled the most with Loki.
