Help, we need advice re training classes please

[agilebasenji]

I have to reiterate the Control Unleashed suggestion. There are also a couple of DVD's and there is also a new puppy book just out. You can also join the CU list (yahoo groups) and possibly find a CU trainer, or like-minded person near you. It sounds like the trainer is having you do exercises Kwame just isn't quite ready for. Unfortunate.

[agilebasenji]

@kristen:

Like i said, i have NEVER been around a Basenji before and therefore have never had to deal with them. All i have trained are labs, boxers, rotti mixes and i have always found it helped me a lot with them so thank you for the insight. i do remember reading about the fact Basenjis need a kind hand i guess that just slipped my mind when i read this post. I am getting a Basenji because i have never had to train one before and i wanted a nice challenge and i think the breed is beautiful and i am so very excited to welcome my little girl home at the end of the month. thanks again.

I think you're in for a wild ride and a major learning curve, if you're open to it. Basenjis to tend to be high-spirited, and those of us who love the breed appreciate that about them. They are very independent minded and do not like being man-handled. They quite resent being forced into a "sit" for example. However, with clicker training, I've found the basenjis to be eager and clever. They like figuring out the puzzle/game and become quite pleased with themselves when they learn a new trick. Besides, it's WAY more fun to train this way. If you're open to it, try browsing your local library for any books by:
Karen Pryor
Patricia McConnell
Suzanne Clothier
Pat Miller
Jean Donaldson
Jane killion
Leslie McDivett

There are several other authors, but those are the ones that I think my local library system has.

[eeeefarm]

I second the clicker training suggestion…....for any breed, or for that matter, critter. It is the most precise way to indicate what behaviour you are looking for. Done correctly, it is very quick. Once you have understanding, i,e, the behaviour is on cue, discipline is a different matter. Basenjis are quick to understand what you want (regardless of training method), but getting their cooperation is another thing. If you have worked with cats at all, you will understand what I mean. The trick is to make the dog want to please you, not so easy with a dog that really doesn't give a rat's patootie whether you are happy with his behaviour or not. (granted, some Basenjis are more interested in pleasing you than others, but "biddable" is not a Basenji strong point!) Food rewards work well for Basenjis, but aren't the answer to all problems. I do believe in letting the dog know there are consequences when he crosses the line. (of course, he must have a clear understanding of where the line is!)

[Moth]

Is he just being overstimulated and reactive because he is on lead? Some dogs are leash reactive. So that could be part of the problem.

Our boy also started coming more into his own around 12-13 months and began testing me more…so that could also be at play.

I just got a book called Behavior Adjustment Training by Grisha Steward it talks about working with your dog to modify behaviors like that that can be rooted in fear, frustration, and aggression. I like what I have read so far and it has very nice illustrations to help you out as well. Maybe you can check it out and see if there is something in there for you and Kwame.

Patience...you have a teenage boy on your hands

[agilebasenji]

moth-
let me know how the BAT works for you. i keep hearing about it and keep meaning to learn more about it, but so far i have not. i think most of the stuff i've heard is good stuff.

[thunderbird8588]

@krunzer:

Is Kwame food motivated? Hot dogs, pepperonis, smoked salmon, cheese? Will something like this distract him totally from another dog and get him to focus solely on you? You want to make sure that he is looking at your face and not the treat also before he gets the treat, this will teach him to look to you to see what he is supposed to do. I agree that a Basenji is NOT a normal dog, for training reasons and personality. These guys have a lot going on in their heads and will out-think you. Good luck with your training.

Kwame is very motivated by food, however it's very difficult to get him to focus on anything other than the other dog. I need to do some work on getting him to focus.

[thunderbird8588]

@Moth:

Is he just being overstimulated and reactive because he is on lead? Some dogs are leash reactive. So that could be part of the problem.

Our boy also started coming more into his own around 12-13 months and began testing me more…so that could also be at play.

I just got a book called Behavior Adjustment Training by Grisha Steward it talks about working with your dog to modify behaviors like that that can be rooted in fear, frustration, and aggression. I like what I have read so far and it has very nice illustrations to help you out as well. Maybe you can check it out and see if there is something in there for you and Kwame.

Patience...you have a teenage boy on your hands

Yes i know what you mean about a teenage boy,lol
He is worse on the lead , definately and had always been fine on the rare occasions we manage an off lead walk. However three times in class he has gone for other dogs , he also began to growl at another dog whilst out and off lead just on a walk.

[thunderbird8588]

@agilebasenji:

I have to reiterate the Control Unleashed suggestion. There are also a couple of DVD's and there is also a new puppy book just out. You can also join the CU list (yahoo groups) and possibly find a CU trainer, or like-minded person near you. It sounds like the trainer is having you do exercises Kwame just isn't quite ready for. Unfortunate.

Thank you, i will most certainly buy the book and look into the yahoo group, nothing to lose

[Moth]

@thunderbird8588:

Yes i know what you mean about a teenage boy,lol
He is worse on the lead , definately and had always been fine on the rare occasions we manage an off lead walk. However three times in class he has gone for other dogs , he also began to growl at another dog whilst out and off lead just on a walk.

BAT sounds like a good fit for this…she talks about dog to dog aggression and reactivity and how to teach the dog other behavior instead of becoming overstimulated and reactive.

[Moth]

@agilebasenji:

moth-
let me know how the BAT works for you. i keep hearing about it and keep meaning to learn more about it, but so far i have not. i think most of the stuff i've heard is good stuff.

I can post a review once I have finished reading it… Want to maybe apply some of it to teach my two to be less reactive with out cat in certain situations.

I too have heard only good things about this from other trainers.

[Nemo]

@Moth:

BAT sounds like a good fit for this…she talks about dog to dog aggression and reactivity and how to teach the dog other behavior instead of becoming overstimulated and reactive.

I agree. I finished the book a little while a go. They have a Yahoo group too. It's very complimentary to Control Unleashed. The BAT book has lots of examples of how to do setups and management on everyday walks.

[Patty]

Shelley, I've been off forum for a few days and was dismayed that you're having these problems - I would agree with Ivoss and I would stop taking him to these classes until you can get him focus on you. I can see that you instinctively feel this too. I have read Control Unleashed since I first saw it recommended by Ivoss on this forum and it all makes sense to me. I'm now going to get the BAT book too. When training him use some extra special titbit that he doesn't normally have. It also helps him to focus if you start hand feeding him for a while. I know it can be tedious to have to do this but you'll find a difference.

You say the trainer had some success in holding Kwame down but please don't be tempted to try it - you can spoil a Basenji relationship like that.

Have you talked with Victoria about this?

[thunderbird8588]

thank you so much for everyones replies, it is much appreciated, sometimes it can feel like you are the only one in the world with the problems although of course you know that you aren't realy.
As an update for a while i have started to dread the training class which i was surprised to feel as it's been such a positive experience with Malaika.
I felt on Saturday that we were being asked to do something Kwame wasn't capable of, it makes sense as Ivoss pointed out that if he's not reliable on lead then he's certainly not going to be off.
I have seen him get gradualy worse at class and it is no longer a positive experience for either of us.
To a degree we did trust the trainer as Malaika has done so well and realy enjoys her classes, however yes instinctively i know it's not the right enviroment for Kwame at present.
The plan is to work on getting Kwame to focus on us and reward him with food whilst approaching another dog or noisy large vehicle that he fancies tackling, trying to drum into him that something pleasant happens during these times.
I am going to order the control unleashed book to start with and also the other books reccomended by members.
We are going to stop with the classes for Kwame at present.
Victoria is aware of the situation

[wizard]

I just finished a "manners" class with my yearling boy. Basenjis and distractions are an issue for all of us and this class was absolutely great for helping with that. As already noted, you can use food to develop focus BUT use that for everything that can be a distraction not just another dog or a car. While at home, any time Kwame turns his attention to you, even just for a second, reward with a little treat. Once he learns that simply looking at you will generate a treat, then use a special word (like focus or me or look or here or whatever). Then start adding distractions inside like a chunk of food on the floor (the "leave it" command) or a special toy he likes or have someone roll a ball past (even if he doesn't care for balls, the movement will be a distraction). Any time he looks at the distraction but looks back at you, reward. Once he's showing success inside then apply this outside. When he sees another dog use your focus word to draw his attention back to you and reward. This is more than "leave it" but rather "leave it and look at me to see what I want you to do about it". It won't take long if you treat consistently.

[Nemo]

@thunderbird8588:

thank you so much for everyones replies, it is much appreciated, sometimes it can feel like you are the only one in the world with the problems although of course you know that you aren't realy.
As an update for a while i have started to dread the training class which i was surprised to feel as it's been such a positive experience with Malaika.
I felt on Saturday that we were being asked to do something Kwame wasn't capable of, it makes sense as Ivoss pointed out that if he's not reliable on lead then he's certainly not going to be off.
I have seen him get gradualy worse at class and it is no longer a positive experience for either of us.
To a degree we did trust the trainer as Malaika has done so well and realy enjoys her classes, however yes instinctively i know it's not the right enviroment for Kwame at present.
The plan is to work on getting Kwame to focus on us and reward him with food whilst approaching another dog or noisy large vehicle that he fancies tackling, trying to drum into him that something pleasant happens during these times.
I am going to order the control unleashed book to start with and also the other books reccomended by members.
We are going to stop with the classes for Kwame at present.
Victoria is aware of the situation

Like Agile mentioned, if you are on Yahoo groups, I would highly suggest joining the Control Unleashed group and possibly the Functional Rewards (BAT focused - I'm not a member of that one). The books are great but my level of understanding of how to apply the techniques to different dogs and situations increased significantly from reading there. Plus it is a very supportive environment where other people will understand what you're dealing with.

[agilebasenji]

OH! and google Overall's Relaxation Protocol. Start that yesterday. Do what you can in one day's worth. Maybe you can only do the first 5 things on Day 1. That's fine. I use a down instead of a sit, but it's really helpful in getting the dog to not feel like he has to be involved in everything going on around him. I use a mat for this and have had lots of fun doing it all sorts of places. People at the conformation shows were mega impressed with I sent Zest! to her mat. (I think those people are easily impressed!)

[thunderbird8588]

Have joined the online CU Yahoo group

[nomrbddgs]

Every dog is different and every Basenji is very, very different. I agree with Lisa about Kwame-he needs more time.

Kristen, I just have a note to say if you are getting a Basenji simply because you want a challenge for training-you are getting the wrong breed. Yes, they are a challenge, but you cannot force them to train. I find it's on their agenda, not yours. You can train a Basenji all you want, but in my experience, if they want to listen to your commands, they will-if they don't want to, they definitely won't and you won't be able to make them. I would never, ever, ever trust one completely to be able to relax enough to know the Basenji will focus on you totally.

Some B's train better than others, it depends on their ability to focus. I have one line that is not good at all about focusing. And I wouldn't trust them one inch to be able to hold any sort of training. They simply are a more unfocused line. They would do great on their own and be able to survive, of that I have no doubt.

[thunderbird8588]

I agree with Arlene about Basenjis having an agenda and training. It's very difficult to get other people yo understand just what they are like. For instance our two understand fully what heel means, we have been working on it with Malaika for two years. If they both choose to do so they can do text book loose lead walking, if however they choose not to, usualy when we have both out together, the walk can be a nightmare.
I have purchased some gentle leaders this week to give these a go, will update when we have done.
Re each Basenji being different, Malaika realy enjoys her classes and yodels often in enjoyment, she is a pleasure (mostly ) to train. wearas the story is very different with Kwame.

[nomrbddgs]

I had a couple who came to see, and eventually took home, a seven month old. They didn't seem to believe me on how a basenji can a) have an agenda, and b) totally ignore what you want and do what they want. They learned very quickly that B's are not the same as other dogs and will do just about anything they please-sometimes just to p–- you off! However, after two years, he is settling down somewhat and while he is getting better, they still do not trust him alone. You can love them to death, but don't get too attached to your furniture, clothes, items around the house, etc. In one split second they can go from well behaved, 'I would never do that', butter wouldn't melt in their mouth sweetness to devil dog, hell on wheels (paws) and spawn of satan.