I think I will buy a wire crate also. LIked that the plastic ones are more "den" like , but like you said I can just put a blanket at night… Thanks
Separation Anxiety and Re-Crate Training
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@Therese:
…The best description is that the dog that suffers from seperation anxiety isn't anxious about being left alone because it feels abandoned but is instead worried about his/her owners needing them...
Therese, that makes perfect sense to a basenji owner! Perhaps if we stop looking out of our spectacles, but look through their eye-liner eyes… we can understand their anxiety? You are saying that they are not anxious about being in a confined area, but are anxious because they are worried about me/you… that makes a lot of sense to me!
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Therese, that makes perfect sense to a basenji owner! Perhaps if we stop looking out of our spectacles, but look through their eye-liner eyes… we can understand their anxiety? You are saying that they are not anxious about being in a confined area, but are anxious because they are worried about me/you… that makes a lot of sense to me!
Makes sense but what's the solution…
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Therese - that book sounds like an excellent read. The description you gave makes complete sense. I'm going to order the book today.
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To the OP…I'm sorry she had such a rough day. One thing that I failed to mention is that I put a top on the expen. It sounds like that probably wouldn't matter in your case. I think the book Therese sounds like it could help immensely. Please keep us updated.
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@Therese:
The best description is that the dog that suffers from seperation anxiety isn't anxious about being left alone because it feels abandoned but is instead worried about his/her owners needing them.
I was refraining from responding about the book (YES, stop laughing, I do actually often refrain!)
But unless you have some psychic ability, such a spin is really a bit silly. The author ascribes things and imaginings that make no sense. MOST dogs with separation anxiety are fine if ANY human is there, or a familiar one. So this theory, much as we may want to spin it's all about US, makes no logical sense.
But the bottom line is, it's a waste of energy making up such thinking because it has nothing to do with the reality of the situation. It would be as logical for her to spend time saying that when we are gone they worry an alien will suck them out of the home. Actually, that would fit BETTER because then ANY human would prevent it and they wouldn't have to be anxious, which is usually the case. See my point? One wiser trainer suggested that separation anxiety is a genetic predisposition to fear of being without the pack leader. But the wise trainer said while it might serve a survival need to stay with the pack, he couldn't prove it and it didn't make any difference. The problem was overcoming it.
A pretty snarky but imho accurate evaulation of Jan Fennell:
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/fennelllistener.htmlI just feel she is long on anecdotal evaluations, short on real insights and spends a lot of time with silliness (which I consider the almost psychic conclusion that your dog worries for your safety) instead of useful training help.
As with people, the cause of a phobia is rarely all that important. The important part is retraining the response. Often, as with people, it takes a very long time, working in small increments of time and expanding it to get a dog used to being alone. Sometimes it takes medications. Sometimes it requires other options (such as massively expensive steel crates the dog cannot hurt itself on or get out of, medications, day care, etc). But whether the dog has anxiety about being alone, about not having one of it's humans/pack leaders, or fear of aliens… the issue is the behaviors and responses.
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Debra,
I don't disagree with your assessment of Jan Fennell overall, I still believe in reading, attending, watching all the trainers I can and using what I get from each one. Sometimes it is a great deal and sometimes it is little tid bits.However I have to disagree about treatment of anxiety in people and also treatment of anxiety in dogs. I sat on a psychotropic drug review group for 9 years and one case comes to mind. The man had severe dementia and sleep disturbance, his original MD felt sleep meds and antidepressants were the answer. His first psych consult felt antianxiety meds would benefit this man. Eventually they used behavior modification to get him to sleep at night and not during the day combined with the meds. Through all this he became more anxious and after two years he was now having appetite issues. Having severe dementia he couldn't explain to his doctors what he was going through so they have to play hit and miss like we do with dogs.
The group I sit on reviewed his entire history and found he had owned a mortuary and was the person responsible for picking up the deceased. Anyone who works in the medical field will tell you oddly enough most deaths occur at night. He was used to getting up in the middle of the night and shaving and putting on a suit and tie to go do his work. To calm down when he returned home he would often have a bite to eat. This explained him getting up several times during the night and why he wanted to shower, shave, dress and even eat. It wasn't in fact he was confused about time of day. But what was most important was that by putting him on meds and changing his routine to make waking up throughout the night caused extreme anxiety because he was worried he wasn't doing his job.
We backed off his meds and eventually he took a low dose antidepressant that also helped with appetite and allowed him to get up during the night if he felt the need. We call that using environmental approaches. He passed away last year and the past few years of his life even the antidepressant was not needed. He kept odd hours from the rest of the patients but had a great relationship with the night staff.
I just think we should use all the info available to help our dogs and our people. I don't disagree with behavior modification at all, but I just don't think its all there is.
Hope you never have to feel you have to hold your tongue with me, I love learning new info all the time and that's what I like about what I read on this group.
Therese -
Okay, wow. I didn't globalize mental states, simply phobias. Understanding emotional disorders is of course important. Btw, I worked in counseling for many years before becoming a parent and staying home to raise her. Behavior therapy is great for many things, including phobias. It can SUPPORT other things. I hope no one else assumed my post meant I don't see the value in therapy or think behavior mod is the only answer for people or animals. I am shaking my head wondering if you imagined me saying to a mugging victim… oh we don't care why you are afraid to go out, just do these behavior mod programs. I was addressing one thing... that Jan makes up stuff that isn't even all that logical, and totally unnecessary for dogs. And that dogs AND people with phobias mostly just need behavior therapy to improve.
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Debra,
I did misread your post, I thought you were saying the reason is not important. My bad, I totally agree with the behavior modification approach just thought some insight to why in our case helped the method. I think we are probably agreeing more than I thought. Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
Therese -
I had an interesting conversation with a behaviorist friend of mine several months back that has made me rethink a bit on separation anxiety. Her question to me was, "In your experience do basenjis in general demonstrate classic separation anxiety or are they frustrated by confinement?" In thinking about it, I realized that really what I see in basenjis in a spectrum of behavior. Some have the type anxiety that Debra describes where any human present is enough. Some have the type of anxiety that Therese describes where it is the owners that are important. Some basenjis don't care so much about the people, they just don't want to be confined.
Knowing what is triggering the behavior is important in modifying it. That is one reason why so often the recommendation is to find someone local because they can observe what is actually happening with that dog.
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Well, the thing is, on some levels if you know the cause, or can really guess it.. of course that is the aspect you address. I just meant if you don't KNOW, don't make it up… you can treat without knowing. And seeing as they are dogs, you may not ever KNOW.
If the dog is fine home alone but hates a crate, you work on crate or options to crating.
If the dog is bored in the crate, you get a huge one or give toys and things to keep busy to help.
If your dog has actual separation anxiety about being alone, you try to desensitize it, or get it a companion, or get a pet sitter.
I didn't mean to say it is not ever important, it can be.
But to make up some silly thing like dogs are worried their owner needs them to protect them.. that bugs me. If you KNOW the reason, address it. If not, then move on and try each area til you find what works.
I truly think ALL breeds of dogs run the spectrum in why. And for the most part, even if you don't know why, you can still work on eliminating the behaviors.
That said, dogs with serious phobias, be it noise or separation anxiety... I have seen some horrible cases where the owners managed to really make very little dent and barely keep livable. Please don't anyone think I imagine it is simple or easy fix.
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I had an interesting conversation with a behaviorist friend of mine several months back that has made me rethink a bit on separation anxiety. Her question to me was, "In your experience do basenjis in general demonstrate classic separation anxiety or are they frustrated by confinement?" In thinking about it, I realized that really what I see in basenjis in a spectrum of behavior. Some have the type anxiety that Debra describes where any human present is enough. Some have the type of anxiety that Therese describes where it is the owners that are important. Some basenjis don't care so much about the people, they just don't want to be confined.
Knowing what is triggering the behavior is important in modifying it. That is one reason why so often the recommendation is to find someone local because they can observe what is actually happening with that dog.
I agree Lisa. I think true separation anxiety is different than 'confinement anxiety'. I would venture to guess that true separation anxiety in Basenjis occurs at the same rate as it does in other breeds…but I do think that Basenjis might be more prone to 'confinement anxiety'. To this day, Querk, at 12 years old will do whatever it takes to try to get out of a crate, for as long as it takes...on Christmas day he made his mouth bleed, and broke apart a wire crate. But he is happy as a clam left alone in the house.
I think we are all in agreement that knowing the trigger is critical to behavior mod in this situation...but knowing WHY or, what the dog is thinking, is not really important.
I wanted to add, that although the "why" may not be important...lots of us find it fun to speculate about what dogs are thinking. I have the same preoccupation with trying to guess mixed breeds...it doesn't really matter, but the speculation is fun!
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@Therese:
Debra,
I did misread your post, I thought you were saying the reason is not important. My bad, I totally agree with the behavior modification approach just thought some insight to why in our case helped the method. I think we are probably agreeing more than I thought. Look forward to sharing more ideas with you.
ThereseThanks and sorry if my post sounded I meant it is never important. Having worked with everything from child abuse to marriage counseling to educational counseling… well I just can't imagine not thinking the cause can be everything.
And yeah we probably agree a lot. -
LOL, I spend a lot of time imagining WHY my dogs do things.
Andrea, I am lucky to not have had any of my own dogs have separation anxiety. Fosters and rescue, yes.
But all 3 of my basenji went through "i hate the crate/confinement". Cara still caterwauls if she sees me and is in her crate, but at least she has stopped biting the rails. I was afraid I would have to switch crate types, but she stopped. Had a friend with dog with wire that actually broke his jaw.
But back to known or guessed causes… The worse rescue I ever got for rehab was a Lhasa Apso, who literally lost bowel control if you got her near a crate. She had been locked in a crate and left in a basement, fed but lived in the crate, for we don't know how long. I spent 8 mos before I attempted to start getting her used to a crate again. And I placed her with someone who had a large cat room where she lived out her life with the cats and only was in a large kennel when she had to go to the vets. I agree knowing her history helped a lot.
BUT, I did "guess" one thing. She was afraid of the dark. As the sun went down she watched the windows and the fearful biting escalated. I am willing to bet that basement had little windows that went pitch black at night. But I don't know. And ultimately it didn't matter... we put her on prozac, kept night lights on, and eventually she stopped watching the windows and losing it at sunset.
I do know you couldn't pay me to rehab another one, lol. No muzzle with a dog that bites is not good. And they have razor blade teeth designed over centuries to rip yak meat. And yes, normally this dog would have been put down, but rescue wanted to give her their all because of the horrible abuse they took her from.
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Well, I real the book, The Dog Listener. Now my husband is reading it. From the way the conversation has progressed I can see people have a variety of opinions on her method
I don't have a particularly strong view either way. I'm sure her method has strength and weaknesses. My husband noticed in the first chapter that she says Homo sapiens emerged from Neanderthals, which we no longer believe to be the case. I believe that doesn't, however, mean her method is totally useless.I'm ready to choose a method and stick to it until it works. Jan Fennel's is appealing to me in some keys ways, so I'm going with it. Today is day one, over the next 48 hours I will be taking control of the pack through simple and subtle messages. I'm optimistic and have seen some results already.
It's pretty interesting, actually. The first step is sending signals that I am the leader whenever we are reunited. This involves intentionally and consistently ignoring the dog as they go through their "repertoire". For Lola this means whining, starting at me, pawing at me, standing between my legs, etc. I have been ignoring her, which can be a challenge. For example, she has tried to get up on my lap, but I preempt that by standing up and turning my back to her. When she has clearly finished her "repertoire" and is calm and disengaged for at least 5 minutes, I call her to "come" and give a treat and some affection. So far, I think this whole process is working. Right now she's curled up in the back of her crate!
I'll keep you all updated. -
I wish you the very best of luck, our Luci responded very much the same. I totally agree with not liking all of her ideas but I certainly found her technique helped me with the seperation anxiety of our girl. The most rewarding thing for me was my girl (Luci) seemed to be so much more at ease with life overall.
As I said before, a large crate, small crate, wire crate, no crate, in the car, in the house and then a second basenji didn't help. This approach did and we have used it ever since with all our dogs and knock on wood we have not had seperation anxiety again in the dogs that live with me.
I also have used this technique on two dogs we fostered for rescue and it worked. It may be the technique is just changing my behavior that allows a calm place for my dog but whatever it is about this worked for us.
Please keep us posted, I know how frustrating this can be and I really felt for you which is why I posted to begin with.
Therese -
Debra,
I totally agree sometimes the crate can be the issue, we have seen dogs (like my mom's shih tzu) have what appeared to be a fear of being confined, he would chew his own paws, but only in wire pens. He traveled with us in our motorhome in a varikennel and never got the least bit upset. I would have given anything to know what triggered fear of wire pens. Guess we'll never know.I have always wondered why those dog psycics always say dogs think they are people, why not lions or elephants. We joke all the time about putting human emotions on dogs, most of the time we believe our dogs think we are complete idiots. I suppose we must look like we do everything the hard way, especially to a basenji.
Therese -
Re Jan Fennell - like many of these 'trainers' you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Much can be learnt from listening to others' ideas as on here we can all learn form each other.
I did actually attend a seminar where Jan Fennell was the speaker. Yes she was full of herself and what she'd achieved but was quite humble about the dogs who'd benefited from advice given to their owners.
We had many dog behaviourists attending and she was questioned quite rigorously but actually held her own.
In my opinion if one dog is helped by using one of her ideas that is good.
And in my opinion,sometimes in cases of abuse it can be helpful to ascertain the why of the resulting behaviour.
I also think that anthromorphism can be dangerous - Basenjis are Basenjis and not people, I agree.
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Here's an update: We've ditched the strict method from the Dog Listener book, but are still utilizing some of the tactics. I would say that Lola is doing better. We've ditched the crate when leaving her alone, because she has now figured out how to undue the latch on the door.
We have a trainer coming to visit our home tomorrow, which we're looking forward to. One of the hardest parts has been deciding on a plan to stick with, so we're optimistic that we're heading in a good direction.
Also, we're finally seriously considering adopting a second dog, so that Lola has a buddy. We've found a possible match and hope top meet him this week.
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Yes, Lovinglola, that's the way to go in my opinion - read all you can from behaviourists etc. and choose what suits your particular dog.
I agree that confinement is more of a problem to a Basenji than separation anxiety. In all my experience I've found that Basenjis are often quite happy about being left and leaving them unconfined by a crate works well. Yes they may destroy one or two things but usually in play rather than stress. I've fostered many Basenjis over several years, mainly from a kennel environment, and this is my experience from those dogs.
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I Have to say from reading all this , that guess I have been really lucky so far. My experience has been very different. Thought Basenjis were fine with confinement because I have never had a problem with Ayo and the crate, or being alone. He is alone in one of my apartments bedrooms for 4 hours in the morning, and about 3 and 1/2 hours in the afternoon, with his crate in the from opened and his marrow bones and toys and water. He is locked in his crate for 4 hours in the morning three times a week , when I have a lady that comes to clean. He is also crated when I take him with me to friends and family for a couple of hours depending!
I was trying to see if there was something that I do or have done that could be useful to you, but I think maybe I'm just lucky. I do know that At the beginning I made it a point not to fuss about leaving or when I got home. I found that whenever I got anxious , he would get anxious. And also never take him out when he was complaining , only when he calmed down. I think it has a lot to do with being calm..
