8 month old is biting…can't get him under control

[annimon]

@starrlamia:

The only time that dogs roll other dogs over onto their belly is to kill them.
The alpha roll is completely outdated and has been scientifically disproven.
Dogs willingly roll onto their back into submission they are never forced.
Our dog was very bad for biting when he was a pup and the only method that worked for us was completely removing any attention from the pup and when he was calm initiate play in a way you want. such as with a toy.

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

[JayCee]

@annimon:

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

Withdrawing attention from a misbehaving dog DOES NOT create separation anxiety. It is also not a 'punishment' if done sensibly the dog realises that 'if I behave in that way playtime stops, therefore its in my best interests NOT to behave in that way. No trauma, no anxiety. There might be some frustration as the dog tries to persuade you to continue the game, especially if this method has not been used from day 1. But once they work it out its like magic…. If I take a toy away I get an instant sit or down and a 'please can we continue' look

Yes puppies will roll over and pin each... but its turn and turn about - and its PLAY. I do not want my Basenji or any of my dogs to think I am another Basenji or dog, hence I do not try to mimic dog language.

Teaching a dog to be restrained in any position and it is not frightening but is a pleasant experience is a good life skill to teach any dog (eg visits to the vet/grooming) it has nothing to do proving your dominance.

I would just like to add that +ve reinforcement training works better than harsh methods on all dogs. I feel so sorry for the other breeds who have been bred for generations to work for man, and have had the inclination to protest bred out of them as they will continue to be abused by this harsh methods long after Basenji's.

Whatever technique you are recommended to try would you want it used on you / your children? If you can answer unequivocal 'yes' then if probably fine to use it. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slamming a toddler to the ground if it didn't come to you in the garden then don't use an 'alpha roll' on your dog. Use a pinch collar on your dog if you would use it on a toddler that when being held by the hand kept tugging yo to get to the children's playground to stop this in the future...

[NerdyDogOwner]

I have to agree with annimon. starrlamias statement is wrong.

Dogs roll on their back during play and to show submission. If a dog wants to kill, it will go for the kill head on, never trying to get the dog on his back….that's just a waste of energy.

However, if there is a disagreement or lack of respect, the dog will put him/her down on it's back to show his/her dominance. This usually happens with very little actual biting/attacking, it just looks more violent than it is.

At the dog-park I see rolling on the back all over the place, and it's 100% safe and during play. Some will even enter the park and instantly fall on it's back as the others approach him/her, to show they mean no harm and view the others as alpha.

As for that "create seperation anxiety" bit, that part I disagree with annimon.

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

I have to agree with annimon. starrlamias statement is wrong.

Dogs roll on their back during play and to show submission. If a dog wants to kill, it will go for the kill head on, never trying to get the dog on his back….that's just a waste of energy.

However, if there is a disagreement or lack of respect, the dog will put him/her down on it's back to show his/her dominance. This usually happens with very little actual biting/attacking, it just looks more violent than it is.

At the dog-park I see rolling on the back all over the place, and it's 100% safe and during play. Some will even enter the park and instantly fall on it's back as the others approach him/her, to show they mean no harm and view the others as alpha.

As for that "create seperation anxiety" bit, that part I disagree with annimon.

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

[annimon]

@JayCee:

Withdrawing attention from a misbehaving dog DOES NOT create separation anxiety. It is also not a 'punishment' if done sensibly the dog realises that 'if I behave in that way playtime stops, therefore its in my best interests NOT to behave in that way. No trauma, no anxiety. There might be some frustration as the dog tries to persuade you to continue the game, especially if this method has not been used from day 1. But once they work it out its like magic…. If I take a toy away I get an instant sit or down and a 'please can we continue' look

Yes puppies will roll over and pin each... but its turn and turn about - and its PLAY. I do not want my Basenji or any of my dogs to think I am another Basenji or dog, hence I do not try to mimic dog language.

Teaching a dog to be restrained in any position and it is not frightening but is a pleasant experience is a good life skill to teach any dog (eg visits to the vet/grooming) it has nothing to do proving your dominance.

I would just like to add that +ve reinforcement training works better than harsh methods on all dogs. I feel so sorry for the other breeds who have been bred for generations to work for man, and have had the inclination to protest bred out of them as they will continue to be abused by this harsh methods long after Basenji's.

Whatever technique you are recommended to try would you want it used on you / your children? If you can answer unequivocal 'yes' then if probably fine to use it. If you wouldn't feel comfortable slamming a toddler to the ground if it didn't come to you in the garden then don't use an 'alpha roll' on your dog. Use a pinch collar on your dog if you would use it on a toddler that when being held by the hand kept tugging yo to get to the children's playground to stop this in the future...

I was just responding to the bit about dogs only roll others when they are going to kill and that I didn't think it was true. I shouldn't like a new owner, seeing playing rolling as the beginning of a kill. I always hold my dog on his side, not his back. I certainly don't slam my dogs down and didn't say that.
I've held my temper trantum kids on my lap until the anger passes and it's worked for me. My children couldn't copntrol their own anger when they were young and neither can a puppy. The difference being that my children have many years to learn and my puppy could end up euthenised if he displays this angry agression outside the home.I haven't had to negotitate, threaten or isolate to get results with my humans. I've never used a pinch collar on a dog and never will. He walks in a harness, so not even a collar pull. The only devices I use are my hands in a non agressive way. Perhaps restrain would be a better word. As for a puppy not wanting to see me as another dog, well that just might be the only way he can view me on such new aquaintence. I don't believe puppies understand the subtleness of different creatures but who is in charge and who he can be in charge of
As I said I didn't wish to be conflicting, but only that first statement made me react and respond. Of course discipline and reinforcement work together. Best wishes

[JayCee]

@annimon:

I was just responding to the bit about dogs only roll others when they are going to kill and that I didn't think it was true. I shouldn't like a new owner, seeing playing rolling as the beginning of a kill. I always hold my dog on his side, not his back. I certainly don't slam my dogs down and didn't say that.
I've held my temper trantum kids on my lap until the anger passes and it's worked for me. My children couldn't copntrol their own anger when they were young and neither can a puppy. The difference being that my children have many years to learn and my puppy could end up euthenised if he displays this angry agression outside the home.I haven't had to negotitate, threaten or isolate to get results with my humans. I've never used a pinch collar on a dog and never will. He walks in a harness, so not even a collar pull. The only devices I use are my hands in a non agressive way. Perhaps restrain would be a better word. As for a puppy not wanting to see me as another dog, well that just might be the only way he can view me on such new aquaintence. I don't believe puppies understand the subtleness of different creatures but who is in charge and who he can be in charge of
As I said I didn't wish to be conflicting, but only that first statement made me react and respond. Of course discipline and reinforcement work together. Best wishes

Please do not think I was attacking you - I am sorry if it came across as that. I was collecting several bits from different posts and responding to them in my post.

[annimon]

@JayCee:

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

Well of course that's not going to happen. The lying down is for aggression not for training. We can't teach a pup to fetch a ball by holding him down if he won't go for it. I haven't got my point across very well. I would only ever require submission from a growling, aggressive, fearful dog and I have had these in the past as rescue animals. I would rather stop the behaviour in it's tracks in this manner. you can't withdraw attention on a walk so what would you do, given that this behavour hasn't happened before in the home? what wopuld you do if your dog had another dog in it's mouth with the intention to kill.

[annimon]

Please do not think I was attacking you - I am sorry if it came across as that. I was collecting several bits from different posts and responding to them in my post.

That's fine, we're here to discuss and learn from each other. I have a problem with aggression on the bed and sofa..nowhere else and I'm looking for help with that. lots of things tried without any change.

[JayCee]

I'm sorry you having aggression issues on the bed and sofa. Have you read Jean Donaldon's 'Mine' which is all about resource guarding? My short answer would be, that if your dog cannot behave politely when given treat/toy/privilege its removed. Therefore no access to the bed or sofa.

I start all my animals off with limited access to the house, using puppy pens/ crates and as they learn the household rules I gradually increase their free access to areas of the house and if invited to human furniture. If they abuse the privilege their access is removed immediately. As I have cats and have had various hunting hounds living me from pups, fosters and rescues this is essential for their safety - but the cats have to abide by the rules too! I am lucky in that I generally live by myself so it is a very consistent environment that is provided for the animals.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@JayCee:

I would not be very happy going to a dog park where multiple dogs are 'having' to show submission by rolling on their backs frequently. That would indicate to me that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialised dog present as it is an extreme greeting requirement.

If its preceded by the play bow and part of play fine… under other circumstances I would not stay there with my dogs.

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

But in the same way as when I go into a park/ room full of strange people I don't start by saying 'Please don't hit me, I don't want a fight' , I say 'Hello' and expect the same in return. Which is the same with well socialised normal dogs. Therefore I will not go to, or stay in, an area where there is a lot of dogs exhibiting their bellies/ dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures. If there is a lot of butt sniffing, play bows, play fights great, but not the other.

I have exercised my dogs on and off leash in public places all their lives - but I choose those places with care, and I think I have social well balanced animals who fortunately have never been involved in any dog fights be they victim or aggressor. Sadly many people cannot read their dogs, nor have enough control should things start going awry so I personally feel prevention is better than a dog fight.

[NerdyDogOwner]

@JayCee:

But in the same way as when I go into a park/ room full of strange people I don't start by saying 'Please don't hit me, I don't want a fight' , I say 'Hello' and expect the same in return. Which is the same with well socialised normal dogs. Therefore I will not go to, or stay in, an area where there is a lot of dogs exhibiting their bellies/ dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures. If there is a lot of butt sniffing, play bows, play fights great, but not the other.

Eh..okay, but dogs have a different language than humans….you do know that right?

You might not be aware of it, but when YOU (human) enter a room with strangers, you actually do give off a body language depending on your personality. Aggressive, confident, submissive...etc.
You might be a confident person, and go right in and say "Hello". Others will stand off to the side by themselves. Some will gradually move closer etc. Does not mean one way is (as you put it) the "normal" way.

Dogs have different personality's too. Some are insecure and will roll on their backs instantly, others will run in with confidence and start playing.

It's a shame you see rolling on the back as a bad sign. Something it most definitely is not.

I highly suggest getting the The Language of Dogs DVD.

But I understand some people are very protective. Dog fights are also a part of learning, and is also an important part of their growth in understanding behavior limits. I am not saying you should throw your dog into a fight, but avoiding other dogs just in fear of it happening is not helping a dogs social development.

[thunderbird8588]

tangokor, just a word of warning if you get your children to yelp or yelp yourself.
I did this with Malaika and found it whipped her up even more, i could see the excitement in her eyes and she leapt at me. I think the yelp i used was too high pitched maybe like an injured animal and it had the opposite effect to what i was aiming for. So what i'm saying is experiment with pitches.

[JayCee]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Eh..okay, but dogs have a different language than humans….you do know that right?

You might not be aware of it, but when YOU (human) enter a room with strangers, you actually do give off a body language depending on your personality. Aggressive, confident, submissive...etc.
You might be a confident person, and go right in and say "Hello". Others will stand off to the side by themselves. Some will gradually move closer etc. Does not mean one way is (as you put it) the "normal" way.

Dogs have different personality's too. Some are insecure and will roll on their backs instantly, others will run in with confidence and start playing.

It's a shame you see rolling on the back as a bad sign. Something it most definitely is not.

I highly suggest getting the The Language of Dogs DVD.

Er yes I do know that dogs have different body language. Sarah Kaljnas' dvd, 'The Language of Dogs' is excellent and I bought it after listening to her present at the APDTA conference last year. I do not make direct comparisons to dog and human interactions but try to use them as analogies.

But when entering a dog park with 10-20 dogs running about I do not know those dogs individually , so I cannot correctly interpret each of their displays. Nor can I watch multiple dogs, I have to go on overall impression. Which I why I say multiple dogs 'having' (and this is key) to show bellies combined with dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures causes me concern.

I have never said showing bellies by itself is a bad sign.

I have also added that this is my choice to exercise my dogs daily in off-leash in less densely dog populated areas, so I hardly think I am coming across as neurotic owner who does not let their dogs interact with other dogs, but I try to ensure that anytime my dogs have interactions with other dogs, and that its a positive experience for the dogs we meet as well as my own.

With apologies to OP for taking this thread off topic.

[starrlamia]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

thats what I said. DOGS DO NOT FORCE EACH OTHER OVER ONTO THEIR BELLIES UNLESS THEY ARE PLAYING (i forgot the playing part… but it still holds for the fighting part). Any serious roll over onto the belly is an attempt to kill the dog not submit the dog. The Monks of New Skete who initially wrote about alpha rolls and whom made it popular have recanted their statements about it! The alpha roll was based on research on a pack of wolves who were a bunch of random wolves thrown together in captivity, they did not act as a natural pack of wolves would in the wild and this alpha rolling theory has been scientifically disproven.

But when entering a dog park with 10-20 dogs running about I do not know those dogs individually , so I cannot correctly interpret each of their displays. Nor can I watch multiple dogs, I have to go on overall impression. Which I why I say multiple dogs 'having' (and this is key) to show bellies combined with dogs showing stiff 'dominant' postures causes me concern

honestly entering a dog park where there are too many dogs to keep an eye on concerns me. It is too easy for a strange dog to be less tolerant of other dogs and start a fight.

Alpha rolls:
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf

the dominance theory of dog training (ala cesar melan) has been disproven pretty often if you do a google search. Alpha members of a pack are not violent and generally only step in for extreme circumstances, generally it is the beta wolves that do the discplining and the lower ranking wolves who start fights over position in the pack.

[Quercus]

@annimon:

This isn't true. Watch two puppies play and there's plenty of roll over. Watch a male and female play and flirt and there's plenty of roll over. Play with your puppy and watch it voluterily roll over to get a tummy rub. Watch basnejis play with other naimals and roll them over for a good sniff. to suggest that this is purely a killing move is silly.
The problem with withdrawing attnetion from a misbehaving dog is that it will create seperation anxiety and every time you need to go out, it will believe it's being punished.

Dogs do roll each other in play, but that is out of context for what the original poster was referring to. The newest research does indicate that the science behind the "alpha roll" was flawed…and one dog never physically rolls another dog as a correction..the submissive dog rolls ITSELF to show the dominant dog respect, and trust "here is my neck and belly, I know you won't hurt me". Dogs who are having a SERIOUS to the death fight WILL roll each other and attempt to kill each other.

And no...withdrawing attention absolutely has NO bearing on separation anxiety. It is exactly how dogs tell each other that behavior is not appreciated.

[Quercus]

@NerdyDogOwner:

Hardly means that there is an overly dominant/aggressive / poorly socialized dog present at all. It's the dog telling the others his/her intentions and making sure the others are aware. You are being very overly protective or cautious.

ROLLING OVER
When a dog rolls over on his back with his belly exposed and his legs in the air, he's being submissive. If done in front of another dog, he's saying, "You're the boss and I don't want to fight."

That is right^^ BUT…the dog who is rolling over is initiating it...the dog who is dominating is NOT rolling him over until he submits.

Here is an analogy...you can teach your kids to share by praising them when they hand toys to you, or you can yank the toy out of their hand. The result is the same, you have the toy...but what did the child learn?

[tanza]

I agree Andrea, good analogy…

[starrlamia]

@Quercus:

Dogs do roll each other in play, but that is out of context for what the original poster was referring to. The newest research does indicate that the science behind the "alpha roll" was flawed…and one dog never physically rolls another dog as a correction..the submissive dog rolls ITSELF to show the dominant dog respect, and trust "here is my neck and belly, I know you won't hurt me". Dogs who are having a SERIOUS to the death fight WILL roll each other and attempt to kill each other.

And no...withdrawing attention absolutely has NO bearing on separation anxiety. It is exactly how dogs tell each other that behavior is not appreciated.

thanks, my articulation has been lacking lately :S

[tangokor]

Annimon- Thanks for the post. I agree, I'm not terrifying him just getting him in a position to relax. I don't know what else to do sometimes and don't want to use the crate as punishment either. I had teenagers here the other day and he was getting wound up, jumping and trying to bite and I had them stand still and stop play and he soon stopped. This is much harder to do w/ my younger ones who can get afraid and run and don't want to stand still when he acts up .

The past few days with the young kids away at camp have been pretty easy, I've had more time to focus on him and more time to get him excercised which does make a big difference.

The biting though sometimes I think is meaningful and not just play. He will go after my arms and legs sometimes when I'm trying to get something away from him or when I'm just relaxing, no play he will bite out of the blue. I've tried the yelping but I'm really not sure how much that's helping.